discussion NTR tags rework. Please give your opinions (in a mature, calm, constructive manner).

[Darkrift411]

Has anyone ever done their dissertation on this? Sounds like one could get a doctoral degree for it.


I would say: Drop the the Japanese terms (even if they describe specific types of it) because if you ask 200 people about netorare, you will get ~200 different explanations and expectations.
But the abbreviation NTR as a catchword can be kept, although in combination with other words. That way it's easier to recognize.

Let me try to explain. These are examples and I hope it's clear for what I'm going for.
First there are the main NTR tags:

NTR (cheating LI) or NTR (cuckoldry)
NTR (cheating MC)
NTR (stolen LI) pretty much the common definition of netorare
NTR (swinging) happy cheating?
NTR (sharing) would probably include pimping your girls, but that could also be it's own tag
NTR (stealing) this is Netori, could go without the NTR prefix because I don't think anyone is bothered by it

Then there can or should(?) be additional tags, which are not needed to be used on their own but with one of the above.
(Many hentai sites uses this kind of additional tags in different variants. For example: [Lesbian] [Females only] makes clear that there are no guys involved in that story)

NTR (avoidable) or NTR (unavoidable) there is no really a need for both, right? As a side tag, there isn't a need for a tag for every kind of NTR
NTR (flashback) as in a shown scene or as a told story
NTR (backstory) not shown or described but implied or mentioned
NTR (between LIs) could also be a standalone?
NTR (happy cuck) when the MC likes it, e.g. Netorase

I know this is kinda much and there are probably most likley more or better formulatet ones, but my point is, that everyone can quickly understand what that tag stands for without consulting a definition-page.

Again, the problem here is that a lot of those are not ACTUALLY NTR. NTR specifically mentions loss. If you are happy with sharing your girl with your friend and she doesn't leave you, there is no loss. If that wasn't the case, this would be a really easy job.

What I'd really like (applies to most tags, not just NTR) is for the tags to be colour coded to indicate how avoidable that tag is. Eg. RED for unavoidable and GREEN for easily avoidable, maybe ORANGE for avoidable using a walkthrough. Bestiality, scat, urination, etc. should also use this feature. Even something like BIG TITS - red would mean that everyone has grossly oversized tits; green would indicate a mix of big and normal.

That would be great, but hard to implement. I am personally looking into how to make it so that when you hover over a tag, you see a popup with the definition in it, and even that is going to be hard with Xenforo. I will either have to do it with javascript, or have a Xenforo dev code it into the site for me.

 

[ontach]

That would be great, but hard to implement.

Not really. Just show multiple colour tags to the person doing the tagging and let them choose the tag with the appropriate colour. Internally (in code) they will all be treated as separate tags but instead of having to think up descriptive names for each tag variant you're simply displaying different colours.

 

[ErzuzB]

Again, the problem here is that a lot of those are not ACTUALLY NTR. NTR specifically mentions loss. If you are happy with sharing your girl with your friend and she doesn't leave you, there is no loss. If that wasn't the case, this would be a really easy job.

Oh, I agree on that.

I used the abbreviation NTR in the tag prefix because many of these tags can hit a certain kind of feeling for the player (if he doesn't like that at all) and that these group of tags are easily spottable with these three letters in front of it.
And maybe one could avoid further NTR discussions, because the NTR prefix recognizes the general direction of that tag and the english term is for its specific meaning.
Besides the abbreviation NTR includes one type (Netori) that kinda missing any loss for the MC, so I thougt that might me okay.

Sorry if I can't get it across well enough, english is not my native language.

 

[Myuhinny]

Just show multiple colour tags to the person doing the tagging and let them choose the tag with the appropriate colour.

Problem is that the person doing the tagging would have to play each game to see exactly what color to use for each game and most tags come from other places.

 

[Darkrift411]

Problem is that the person doing the tagging would have to play each game to see exactly what color to use for each game and most tags come from other places.

Yeah.... I am REALLY not looking forward to having to play some of these to verify shit. I might have them demote me to user for a week while I do this because I will be banning devs left and right if I am forced to sit through some cucky ass shit. (90% sarcasm.... or maybe 80%)

 

[Wolf Larsen]

About NTR meaning different things for different people, the solution would be holding netorare to a specific standard like VNDB does (instead of a complete super vague bullshit: "stuff to make jealous")

This visual novel has scenes focused on Netorare. Netorare is more than a simple act of infidelity, but the fetishization of jealousy and other negative feelings commonly associated with it.

For a game to be classified as Netorare the following conditions must be met:

1. The protagonist's significant other, a very close friend, or in some cases, a close relative is stolen from him by someone seducing, coercing, blackmailing, outright raping them, or by using other techniques. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are literally stolen, but the negative feelings experienced by their significant other might make it seem so.

2. The one who loses their loved one almost always finds out about the situation and suffers from jealousy and the feeling of helplessness arisen from an inability to change anything. The one stealing the lover and/or the stolen loved one might rub it in by humiliating the loser in private or in public.

3. The trait does not apply if the character having sex with someone else does not have a close loving relationship with the protagonist, and if the protagonist does not experience jealousy and other negative feelings upon finding out about the act. In other words, the ties between the partners and their forcible separation is important to the netorare fetish. For example, an unrequited crush or a potential hero(ine) on a different route would not count for the purposes of this fetish.

4. The act of stealing must happen while the protagonist is in a relationship with the stolen significant other. Scenes of heroine's past relationships do not count as Netorare.

The game is usually portrayed from the perspective of someone losing his significant other, in order to delve deep into the jealousy aspect of the fetish, however, for story purposes the game might switch between multiple POVs and also portray the events from the perspective of the stolen SO.

Subtypes
Type A: The heroine is willingly cheating on the protagonist with another guy and enjoys every second of it. No rape, blackmail, drugs etc. involved, it's consensual sex from the very beginning.
Type B: Initially, the heroine is raped, blackmailed, drugged or otherwise tricked to have sex with someone other than the protagonist. However, she eventually starts enjoying it and the sex becomes fully consensual in the end.
Type C: The heroine is raped in front of the protagonist and he can only helplessly watch it. It's non-consensual from start to finish.

Doesn't fit any of that, or the

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definitions? That's where other tags that are more "broad" should come along. I do understand that too many tags may be too much of a hassle, but the controversy will continue if NTR stands for something vague and games don't get proper warnings about controversial content.

Completely nuking the NTR tag and using only "cheating" and others instead? Honestly, I think putting something like "Cheating LI" in its place would be just the same problem with a different name. Not to mention that "NTR" is so "hardcoded' in the adult games community, that you will probably end up with people talking about it even if it is not part of the tag system, causing more controversy and confusion than clarity I think

 

[Darkrift411]

About NTR meaning different things for different people, the solution would be holding netorare to a specific standard like VNDB does (instead of a complete super vague bullshit: "stuff to make jealous")



Doesn't fit any of that, or the

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or

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definitions? That's where other tags that are more "broad" should come along. I do understand that too many tags may be too much of a hassle, but the controversy will continue if NTR stands for something vague and games don't get proper warnings about controversial content.

Completely nuking the NTR tag and using only "cheating" and others instead? Honestly, I think putting something like "Cheating LI" in its place would be just the same problem with a different name. Not to mention that "NTR" is so "hardcoded' in the adult games community, that you will probably end up with people talking about it even if it is not part of the tag system, causing more controversy and confusion than clarity I think

I agree, and I dont want to nuke the NTR tag, just move shit that doesnt belong under it to its own tags. And yes, I know its going to be a lot of work... I understood that before I accepted this project.

Think about it this way. I DO NOT LIKE NTR. So there should be NO REASON EVER that I would play a NTR game (ok, slight exception is if it had 100% avoidable (not skippable) NTR, but lets not consider that here). But there are some games with the NTR tag that I did play because players (or sometimes the dev) convinced me that they were forced to get the NTR tag for something that isnt really NTR. Now... most of those other somethings ALSO fall into my "dont like them" zone, but not all do.

Example. PL and SL. Both games I really liked. If your LIs doing shit with other girls was enough to get them tagged with NTR, I might have skipped those games because I would have thought it was actual NTR, when in fact I do not consider an incest harem with a father/brother and all of his sisters/daughters doing stuff with each other NTR. But some do. So this is why shit like that needs to be broken into other tags and not just called NTR because some people dislike them.

 

[ontach]

On another site that I won't name, the initial tagging is done by the person who has uploaded the game / created the OP. I'm just figuring out that many games here are posted by an admin and certainly the tagging is a lot of extra work for them.
Is it possible / feasible to offload some of this work onto the rest of us - perhaps using a mechanism similar to a poll? Restricting this activity to trusted members might be a good idea.
A lot of us have either played the game in question or at least read the sometimes fierce debate on other sites so are able to make an informed decision.
The admins can use their feedback / poll results to modify the tags.

 

[Myuhinny]

I'm just figuring out that many games here are posted by an admin

Actually most of the games posted are from the bot who gets the tags from the site they got the links from. Each site varies on the tags and most of them never have the same tags. So some might have to be updated.

 

[Darkrift411]

On another site that I won't name, the initial tagging is done by the person who has uploaded the game / created the OP. I'm just figuring out that many games here are posted by an admin and certainly the tagging is a lot of extra work for them.
Is it possible / feasible to offload some of this work onto the rest of us - perhaps using a mechanism similar to a poll? Restricting this activity to trusted members might be a good idea.
A lot of us have either played the game in question or at least read the sometimes fierce debate on other sites so are able to make an informed decision.
The admins can use their feedback / poll results to modify the tags.

I was given the job of "tag bitch", so sadly that is prob going to be mostly me until I can get things clean enough to where it causes very little work for the rest of the staff. I will 100% be asking for help in the places I can. I am hoping that we get to a point where when a new game is posted by the bot, users will chime in (or have a way to report tag issues) with the invalid/inaccurate tags.

 

[knv]

Netorase (Someone fucks/steals your girl, and you either want it/approve of it or you get off on it (you enjoy being cucked). This is sometimes used to cover sharing, threesomes, swinging and other tags)

Personally, while I'd be fine with either implementation in the OP I'd prefer the second. My main issue with the first is mostly with this tag: "or you get off on it". I think this one would need to be further split: I'd personally consider it Netorare even if the MC enjoys it, if the initial intent of the LI involves deception/betrayal. I can understand that Netorare enjoyers probably prefer that as a separate tag than pure shame driven where MC doesn't enjoy it style of scenes though.

So I'd rather have this be two separated tags, where the deception/stealing (even if MC enjoys) is kept under one tag, and the approval/encouraging part of things (like two LI's together) is kept under some sort of sharing tag. I'm completely fine with the second part, but the first part still feels like being cheated on to me.

 

[Sngo]

For me any other dick touching a LI in past, present or future it's NTR, the past one evoke the same feeling as present or future situations and many of that past or the not yet a LI scenes is used to avoid the 3 letter tag.
When you don't have any input on the fact if mc liked or not it doesn't matter because some dev's that's don't give you the chance and make mc automatically fine with that without player input.
So a sex with other's tag would be a good input since i use that to filter some game in vndb since I don't want sex with other's in my playthrough.
Female can be NTR too if done witouth mc consent and knowledge, nowadays we have the trope of everyone is bi and honestly that annoying so there is some people that don't consider when it's done by female NTR but it still is.
Even if it's female if it's behind mc back and without his knowledge then it can be NTR since it's the same and the only thing different it's the gender of the one doing.
Have the swinging and sharing tag too since some avoid in the other site the lack of sharing tag to claim their game don't fit in swinging or NTR but then you have sharing untagged.
So I would say split the NTR tag in 3, add swinging, sharing and sex with other's tag and would help a lot tagging games.

 

[Sholaday101]

How is this complicated, I don't want to see another man take my girl, I'm not a cuck

 

[Sholaday101]

How is this complicated, I don't want to see another man take my girl, I'm not a cuck

Just add a cuck category so I know I won't like it

 

[Darkrift411]

For me any other dick touching a LI in past, present or future it's NTR, the past one evoke the same feeling as present or future situations and many of that past or the not yet a LI scenes is used to avoid the 3 letter tag.
When you don't have any input on the fact if mc liked or not it doesn't matter because some dev's that's don't give you the chance and make mc automatically fine with that without player input.
So a sex with other's tag would be a good input since i use that to filter some game in vndb since I don't want sex with other's in my playthrough.
Female can be NTR too if done witouth mc consent and knowledge, nowadays we have the trope of everyone is bi and honestly that annoying so there is some people that don't consider when it's done by female NTR but it still is.
Even if it's female if it's behind mc back and without his knowledge then it can be NTR since it's the same and the only thing different it's the gender of the one doing.
Have the swinging and sharing tag too since some avoid in the other site the lack of sharing tag to claim their game don't fit in swinging or NTR but then you have sharing untagged.
So I would say split the NTR tag in 3, add swinging, sharing and sex with other's tag and would help a lot tagging games.

How is this complicated, I don't want to see another man take my girl, I'm not a cuck

Just add a cuck category so I know I won't like it

It is complicated for the exact reason you mention. Everyone has different definitions of NTR and most of them are wrong. People who say "I consider _______ NTR" and throw anything in there they dont like that is remotely close to NTR confuse and dilute the actual meaning of it. There are 100 different people in this site with 100 different definitions of what NTR means to THEM.

When I tag something YOU think is NTR and someone else comes along who does not think it is NTR, we get NTR wars in threads.

Then when the NTR lovers come along to CORRECTLY state that you are wrong about what is or isn't NTR, the rest of us anti-NTR people get called idiots because our side cant understand what actually IS NTR.

Great example, you said "another man take my girl". That means:
1: its a man
2: they "take" your girl.
So based on this you are fine if a girl "takes" your girl, that is not NTR to you. Also, "takes" meaning she leaves you, so you are fine with another man fucking your girl as long as he doesn't take her from you?

Can you see where the confusion is? What you say you dont want is not very clear and does not match with others. Others might say "I don't want any PERSON to take my girl", or even "I dont want any man to FUCK my girl". Everyone has their own definition of what NTR means to them and they all want the tag to mean EXACTLY what they want, fuck everyone else.

Since NOBODY can agree on what NTR actually means, we have to define it. And then we have to find a way to cover all of the other kinks that are not actually NTR but some people think are with proper tags.

 

[Darkrift411]

Here's my take, i think the 3 main categories based on the Japanese word's for them are well know: netorare, nertori and netrorase, for me out of those tags i would play only games tagged as netori as i hate the other two, so for me that explains what type of game it is. For the what game gets tagged as such that is problby where it gets a bit complicated but for me any scene flashback included that shows a li with someone else is netorare, devs try to use the flashbacks and techicaltys to say it not but if its shown or even implied (tmi) then it is (for me anyway).

I wish it was that simple. From the amount of people ive talked to in the last 3 or so days about this (and the hundreds ive asked in the last few years), I would guess one in ten knows about netori/netorase (and most of them are not even certain of the definition and are just close-ish). Most are "I know there is one type that isnt bad". If it were that simple I wouldnt even need this thread.

I personally also dislike the flashback shit but again... we run into the issue that those devs are using the technicality because it is true. Seeing your LI fucked before you meet them is not NTR. Which is why it needs its own tag (or a tag it fits under that people can say "yeah, I dont like this shit either so I will skip any game with this tag"). If we give things correct and ACCURATE tags, then it is much easier for us to exclude content that we do not like, without having to say "well.. there are some things in the NTR tag that I dont mind, so I still have to dig through NTR tagged posts to see what the comments say."

 

[Cotytto]

Well to me flashbacks and the like are TMI (Too Much Information) and there are a LOT of devs that just cannot help themselves from giving out that TMI, even after being told "Hey I as a player do not want to fucking know [X]!" in stuff like betas. I've actually had devs say they were "shocked" at how poorly things were received when a LI right before fucking the MC decide then was the best time to talk about other guys/gals they had fucked. Like seriously TMI is an epidemic. IMO that needs a bloody tag. To be clear I don't want to see flashbacks or anything else because while some devs might call it "technically not NTR" or whatever, it still evokes feelings in the player. If it isn't being cucked "technically" it's cuck adjacent and frankly pretty damned suspect for devs to insert them into their games. Just my opinion.

On another note, I despise lesbian/bi content. It's overdone and almost never done well. Every time it ends up the bi/lesbians get more action than the MC in supposedly "harem" games. Which if there are girls "in love" and fucking in the group it is no longer a harem anymore, it's a poly relationship. So I don't want to see it and I don't want to hear about it. And if I'm supposedly given the option to shut it down only for it to happen anyway I get royally pissed.

I've quit games I've supported financially that have pulled both of the above before and I'm sure I'll do it again because devs just don't learn or refuse to be honest about their content.

As to the NTR tag, yeah splitting it into three is about the best you're gonna get. If you want to get more accurate some other tags should be used (like that sex with others tag I've seen suggested here and elsewhere). Though I do believe it would behoove your site to allow people who have actually played games report if it has tags missing. Too many shady devs out there pulling out the "technically" and "well acktually" excuses to dodge certain tags (not limited to NTR either, seen sandbox devs pull the same stunt on a certain site that shall remain nameless). Players will download a game thinking it won't have something they hate. They run across it (seriously hard to "hide" stuff like sandbox but some devs still try). Then players that hate that content come to threads and start bitching. And threads devolve into fighting matches. If everyone knows what everything has and are informed clearly ahead of time, it's their own damned fault if they play something they hate.

 

[Darkrift411]

Well to me flashbacks and the like are TMI (Too Much Information) and there are a LOT of devs that just cannot help themselves from giving out that TMI, even after being told "Hey I as a player do not want to fucking know [X]!" in stuff like betas. I've actually had devs say they were "shocked" at how poorly things were received when a LI right before fucking the MC decide then was the best time to talk about other guys/gals they had fucked. Like seriously TMI is an epidemic. IMO that needs a bloody tag.

On another note, I despise lesbian/bi content. It's overdone and almost never done well. Every time it ends up the bi/lesbians get more action than the MC in supposedly "harem" games. Which if there are girls "in love" and fucking in the group it is no longer a harem anymore, it's a poly relationship. So I don't want to see it and I don't want to hear about it. And if I'm supposedly given the option to shut it down only for it to happen anyway I get royally pissed.

I've quit games I've supported financially that have pulled both of the above before and I'm sure I'll do it again because devs just don't learn or refuse to be honest about their content.

As to the NTR tag, yeah splitting it into three is about the best you're gonna get. If you want to get more accurate some other tags should be used (like that sex with others tag I've seen suggested here and elsewhere). Though I do believe it would behoove your site to allow people who have actually played games report if it has tags missing. Too many shady devs out there pulling out the "technically" and "well acktually" excuses to dodge certain tags (not limited to NTR either, seen sandbox devs pull the same stunt on a certain site that shall remain nameless). Players will download a game thinking it won't have something they hate. They run across it (seriously hard to "hide" stuff like sandbox but some devs still try). Then players that hate that content come to threads and start bitching. And threads devolve into fighting matches. If everyone knows what everything has and are informed clearly ahead of time, it's their own damned fault if they play something they hate.

I agree with you. In any fantasy game, I dont want to see or even hear about someone who is or will be my LI with any dude. Ever. I dont care if it is a dream (doesn't happen), flashback (happened long ago), fantasy (hasn't happened), etc. Just feels gross. But... while I dont despise it, girl on girl content doesn't do much for me unless it is incest girl on girl (mother/daughter or sisters). Its just "meh" for me. I dont avoid a game because of it, but I wouldn't play a game with only that.

And those technicalities you mentioned are mostly because of the poorly defined tags which I am trying to fix now.

As far as a way to report tags, I am also looking into that. I am hoping to get a "Report Tag Issues" button that would come straight to me (at least for now). I am trying to make it so my fixing the tags does not overburden the mods. By the time the changes are made and shit settles down, that could probably be something that any staff can handle as there wont be tons of them per day.

I am also making a thread where tags will be CLEARLY DEFINED. You will be able to understand what should have that tag with just a tiny amount of common sense needed. And if possible, I will go a step further and have these definitions also be visible when you hover over a tag.

 

[SeveredRealms]

I encourage people to report missing tags. It will only improve the site when people can let us know if something is missing so we can fix it and make sure people find the content they want and not content they do not like.

 

[Myuhinny]

LI flashback sex tag - LI LI sex tag - if the mom has sex with her husband mother father sex tag - husband wife sex tag - TMI tag.