NTR tags rework. Please give your opinions (in a mature, calm, constructive manner).

[Dean]

We are looking to rework the tags for NTR (and NTR related genres/kinks). We want to break the giant blanket of "NTR" up into the different things that people commonly mistake for NTR.

To be clear upfront, I am not a fan of NTR or many of its alternate/related genres/kinks. I usually avoid any game even remotely containing NTR type shit. The reason these tags are important is so that I can avoid them without having to play them and see content I do not want to see. I hate games where the dev is like "Just try my game, its barely NTR" or "Its not really NTR... just close.", etc. I am not interested in your game if you have the types of content I dislike in them.

The problem is there are many different things that the majority of users consider NTR that are not Netorare, which is generally what the tag is meant for. From my understanding,

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. So if you allow your friend to sleep with your girl, and you do not lose her, that is not Netorare. Also, if you think your neighbor is hot, and you want to fuck her, but her husband fucks her, that is also not Netorare because she is not yours to be taken from you. Same with knowing your father fucked your mother to make you. She was not yours to lose, so that is not NTR, but lots of people do not want to see that content and bundle it up and call it NTR.

I am hoping that breaking down the different items into their own clearly explained tags will help clean some of this up.

Options:

1. Break NTR up into its 3 main categories based on the Japanese words used for them:
   Netorare (Someone fucks/steals your girl, you do not want it/approve of it and have negative feelings about it)
   Netori (You fuck/steal someone else's girl or you cuck them, you are not the one losing, they are)
   Netorase (Someone fucks/steals your girl, and you either want it/approve of it or you get off on it (you enjoy being cucked). This is sometimes used to cover sharing, threesomes, swinging and other tags)
   
   
2. Keep NTR for just Netorare and use other (English labelled) tags for the other stuff to make it more clear for those not familiar with the Japanese/Anime usage of the tags/words:
   NTR (Netorare)
   Sharing (with a male)
   Sharing (with a female)
   MC Cheating - (Netori, you are cheating on your LIs)
   LI Cheating - (Your girls are cheating on you, basically NTR but this would help un-confuse the usage of the cheating tag, might not be needed)
   
   
3. Other - Please leave a mature, calm and constructive response (reply to me so I get a notification) explaining what your idea is, and why it is better than one of these 2. Please note any non constructive replies may be deleted. This is not the place to argue why NTR is evil. We just want to make it VERY easy for those who do not like specific content to be able to avoid it.

Notes:

• Once the tags were changed, there would be a thread that explains all of the tags in detail to send people who misuse the tag or cannot figure out which one a game needs. Possibly also definitions when you hover over the tag.
• In my opinion, the problem with #1 is that not everyone knows what those mean and would confuse them frequently. It also does not deal with sharing at all which many people consider a form of NTR.
• If you are looking for a place to bitch about NTR, or to bitch about lack of NTR, find somewhere else. This is not the purpose of this thread.
• Stuff like NTR being avoidable/skippable would not be tag related. Those should instead be mentioned in either the game description, or in a dev note.

 

[micmitja]

Me personally would love to see if it gets split in 3 tags would save lots of reading and asking from ppl with every new game. Adding netorase alone would be almost like dream, many avoid the tag cause is willing and threads after turn in to shit (many at least).
Sharing tag would also be appreciated.
Also important thing would be to know, what many always ask, if its fetish is it avoidable (doesnt happen) or skippable (happens you just dont see it).
In the end it all also depend on devs if they are honest about it or not, at least with fresh games.
My 2 cents on thing.

 

[Darkrift411]

Me personally would love to see if it gets split in 3 tags would save lots of reading and asking from ppl with every new game. Adding netorase alone would be almost like dream, many avoid the tag cause is willing and threads after turn in to shit (many at least).
Sharing tag would also be appreciated.
Also important thing would be to know, what many always ask, if its fetish is it avoidable (doesnt happen) or skippable (happens you just dont see it).
In the end it all also depend on devs if they are honest about it or not, at least with fresh games.
My 2 cents on thing.

The avoidable/skippable stuff should not be a tag, but a note in the game desc. Tags are to explain what is IN the game.

 

[Perverticus]

i would say break it up into 3. only problem i could see though is on netorase, given it has a few things tied up in it, with how broadly it can be applied. so that one would need to be paired with others to help clarify what that one would cover if it is used, since both netori and netorare are self explanatory.

 

[micmitja]

The avoidable/skippable stuff should not be a tag, but a note in the game desc. Tags are to explain what is IN the game.

not as tag, but mentioned somewhere

 

[SeveredRealms]

I know prob a dumb Idea but could we add a line in here. (NTR = No, Yes, Avoidable or skippable) for the choices the dev has to be upfront right on the top of the thread. Only problem is a unknown game posted by the bot or a game someone else posts that doesnt know its there cause the dev hid it on another site.

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[Darkrift411]

I wouldnt mind that, but that is not something that falls into my current project of "clean up and fix tags". As for the ones posted by bots, those are ones we would have to clean up (we as in the players/staff). Players who notice a game not tagged properly should bring it up (hopefully with a screenshot or something as an example) to help us maintain proper tags. Devs will be required to add the correct tags.

 

[Myuhinny]

I think having a NTR (avoidable) tag would be good as many ask if NTR is avoidable or not so having a tag that says NTR (avoidable) will help cut down on those types of questions not all as you know not everyone reads.

 

[Darkrift411]

I think having a NTR (avoidable) tag would be good as many ask if NTR is avoidable or not so having a tag that says NTR (avoidable) will help cut down on those types of questions not all as you know not everyone reads.

As a few have already said (outside of this thread), that is a slippery slope. If we have that, we would need it for each related tag (so in the first example: Netorare - Avoidable, Netorare - Unavoidable, Netori - Avoidable, Netori - Unavoidable, Netorase - Avoidable, Netorase - Unavoidable... but... then we would need "Sharing - Avoidable" and "Sharing - Unavoidable", etc.). There are a lot of "related" tags that people wish to avoid that we would need avoidable version of. That is why I think it is best if that just stays in the game description or a developer note. Also, keep in mind there is avoidable and skippable. In some games if you make a decision, the NTR never happens. In others, it still happens, but you dont have to watch it. That is important for some (who do not care if it happens, just dont want to see it). So that means 3 versions of each tag.

 

[RahulReddy]

I would say, maintain both Japanese 3 tags and also english ones based on the content. Because, sometimes, some devs or players may say that the content is not netorase, but just sharing. Both seems to have slight different meanings. And So, even after you doing this major step unlike other sites like cuck95, there might be a war again for tags if you go for only one option of the poll.

 

[Telgar]

I voted for number two, not all AVN players understand the difference between the three, in the original Japanese wording, but they do understand what NTR itself conitates. There is also the issue of what is considered, NTR, with the separate tags; NTR (Netorare), Sharing (with a male), Sharing (with a female), MC Cheating, LI Cheating; that can be avoided.

 

[mangasm]

Would the sharing tags apply to games if there are no rendered images of it? Would a mention or implication get the game a sharing tag?

 

[Myuhinny]

Would the sharing tags apply to games if there are no rendered images of it?

It would still apply otherwise text based games would have no tags.

 

[Darkrift411]

Would the sharing tags apply to games if there are no rendered images of it? Would a mention or implication get the game a sharing tag?

If MC is fucking someone's wife and he states that his LI is in the other room fucking the husband that is sharing even if you dont see it. If it is hinted at it happening, that is enough in the players mind to not want any part of it.

 

[Wolf Larsen]

If MC is fucking someone's wife and he states that his LI is in the other room fucking the husband that is sharing even if you dont see it. If it is hinted at it happening, that is enough in the players mind to not want any part of it.

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could be a huge problem solver for avoiding the areas considered "gray" regarding netorare and netorase, thus preventing possible shitstorms of NTR discussions.

Game tags should transmit as much information as possible (as such, rape can also be considered NTR following the Type B and Type C types of VNDB, something largely ignored by that other forum). Also, the general ideas about the terms "sharing" and "cheating" are not completely equivalent to the Japanese, more specific nomenclature.

Examples:
-If the protagonist has a girlfriend and cheats on her: it's not netorase or netorare, because he's not the one being cucked. It's also not netori if his new lover wasn't "stolen" from somebody else. It's simply "cheating" (by the protagonist, if we are going to be precise).

-If the protagonist has sex with some random woman he just met and shares her with a guy: It's not netorare or netorase, she's not stolen from him, and there is not even a relationship. It's not swinging, for the same reason that we are not talking about a couple, in an open relationship agreement. It's simply "sharing".

 

[Darkrift411]

Examples:
-If the protagonist has a girlfriend and cheats on her: it's not netorase or netorare, because he's not the one being cucked. It's also not netori if his new lover wasn't "stolen" from somebody else. It's simply "cheating" (by the protagonist, if we are going to be precise).

Exactly, and if we give the cheating tag, some people will think the LIs are cheating on the MC, so they will assume its NTR-ish. That is part of the reason this all needs to be done.

-If the protagonist has sex with some random woman he just met and shares her with a guy: It's not netorare or netorase, she's not stolen from him, and there is not even a relationship. It's not swinging, for the same reason that we are not talking about a couple, in an open relationship agreement. It's simply "sharing".

And in this case we have one of those situations where it is not any kind of NTR but a lot of people will claim so because to the player (not the MC) the girl might have been liked and they hope she will be an LI. This is something I have started calling "unwanted content" when I get into a "that is not NTR" debate with someone.

But...If I make an "unwanted content" tag and start putting it on games where devs show stupid shit (your father fucking your mother before you are born, your LI being molested as a child, the hot neighbor getting fucked by her husband, etc) then the devs will throw a huge fit. And we would have those few who are fine with any of that shit be like "But its not unwanted!"

I havent figured a way around that yet.

 

[Wolf Larsen]

Exactly, and if we give the cheating tag, some people will think the LIs are cheating on the MC, so they will assume its NTR-ish. That is part of the reason this all needs to be done.

Maybe the more specific tag "cheating by the MC" could be a useful addition, since the situation does not fall under the NTR trio (netori, netorare, and netorase). The Japanese words are more specific by default. The English terms ("cheating" and sharing") however are vaguer and might require further details.

I said this because you put that "MC Cheating - (Netori, you are cheating on your LIs)". Those two things can be quite different and might cause more confusion than clarity. In netori, what matters is the relationship status of the love interest (classic example: neglected housewives). In "MC Cheating", as we put it, we are talking about the relationship status of the MC, not of the love interest that it is pursued.

I say put both English and Japanese words as tags. I understand that might look like a clusterfuck, but then, I prefer more details than fewer, as is the case with VNDB (and netori is such a case of a kink that can't be easily clearly adapted to the English terms).

And in this case we have one of those situations where it is not any kind of NTR but a lot of people will claim so because to the player (not the MC) the girl might have been liked and they hope she will be an LI. This is something I have started calling "unwanted content" when I get into a "that is not NTR" debate with someone.

But...If I make an "unwanted content" tag and start putting it on games where devs show stupid shit (your father fucking your mother before you are born, your LI being molested as a child, the hot neighbor getting fucked by her husband, etc) then the devs will throw a huge fit. And we would have those few who are fine with any of that shit be like "But its not unwanted!"

I havent figured a way around that yet.

Well yeah, the "Unwanted Content" tag sounds mean as hell lol. That's why I suggested "Sex with Others". Will tag specifically every game with sex scenes with males other than the MC, with no discrimination or bias (which could be a huge case of discussion, including devs screaming "fuck you, extremists, my game doesn't have NTR!").

But of course, your "Sharing with Male" and "Sharing with Female" will also cover some plotholes that the NTR trio, or swinging, would leave behind.

But... we also have the cases of flashbacks, love interests having sex scenes before being in a relationship with the MC, also possibly dodging the NTR tag (and sharing would not apply here as well). Which I think makes a tag like Sex With Others still important.

As I said, I recommend putting all those tags, no matter if they look "redundant" in some games (the Japanese words, Cheating by the Protagonist, Sharing with Female, Sharing with Male, Sex With Others, Swinging, and also "Lesbian" plus "Lesbian All Girl Scene", something to that effect).

 

[User_9060]

here are my 2 cents @Darkrift411 -->

Netorare Someone fucks or steals the LI (love interest) (whether this happens in the past, flashback ...etc it won't matter since the player will be seeing a LI getting fucked against his desire.)
Netori (You fuck/steal someone else's girl or you cuck them, you are not the one losing, they are)
Netorase (Someone fucks/steals your girl, and you either want it/approve of it or you get off on it (you enjoy being cucked). This should be used to cover sharing, threesomes, swinging and other cuck tags)


One of the main problems in sites is that the dev have the power for the mc to want it or not so they will abuse this to have "technically not" ntr, sharing, swinging.

For example, if the dev forces the player to share her gf, technically it will be "sharing" yet the player doesn't have a choice so it is also forced netorase/netorare.
(netorare because the player may not want it and netorase because the dev made the mc want it, get it?)

In vndb "sex with others" was added because some devs will use this technicality, so they add this new tag when a game has some LI (love interest) fucking someone else in the story that is not the mc, whether it happens in the past, flashback or whatever.

I don't envy you guys, as someone that used to tag games in the past for vndb.... is a pain in the ass, even more, if you have to re-tag all the games.

 

[Darkrift411]

here are my 2 cents -->

Netorare Someone fucks or steals the LI (love interest) (whether this happens in the past, flashback ...etc it won't matter since the player will be seeing a LI getting fucked against his desire.)
Netori (You fuck/steal someone else's girl or you cuck them, you are not the one losing, they are)
Netorase (Someone fucks/steals your girl, and you either want it/approve of it or you get off on it (you enjoy being cucked). This should be used to cover sharing, threesomes, swinging and other cuck tags)


One of the main problems in sites is that the dev have the power for the mc to want it or not so they will abuse this to have "technically not" ntr, sharing, swinging.

For example, if the dev forces the player to share her gf, technically it will be "sharing" yet the player doesn't have a choice so it is also forced netorase/netorare.
(netorare because the player may not want it and netorase because the dev made the mc want it, get it?)

In vndb "sex with others" was added because some devs will use this technicality, so they add this new tag when a game has some LI (love interest) fucking someone else in the story that is not the mc, whether it happens in the past, flashback or whatever.

I don't envy you guys, as someone that used to tag games in the past for vndb.... is a pain in the ass, even more, if you have to re-tag all the games.

See, I disagree with you on the "in the past" part. I DO NOT consider that NTR. I consider it "unwanted content". Its shit I DONT WANT TO SEE. But it doesnt really fit with what NTR means. It kinda fits with what people have decided NTR means, but thats not really good because that shit changes all the time.

I really feel that I need to come up with some sort of "Possibly Unwanted Content" tag to cover shit like that. Stuff that doesnt quite fit into other tags, but some people would not want to see. The problem there is... what dev is going to be OK with their game getting that tag? They are all going to fight against it. But as a player myself, I hate it when I play a game that is missing the NTR tag but I see one of these "almost NTR" scenes.

 

[User_9060]

See, I disagree with you on the "in the past" part. I DO NOT consider that NTR. I consider it "unwanted content". Its shit I DONT WANT TO SEE. But it doesnt really fit with what NTR means. It kinda fits with what people have decided NTR means, but thats not really good because that shit changes all the time.

I really feel that I need to come up with some sort of "Possibly Unwanted Content" tag to cover shit like that. Stuff that doesnt quite fit into other tags, but some people would not want to see. The problem there is... what dev is going to be OK with their game getting that tag? They are all going to fight against it. But as a player myself, I hate it when I play a game that is missing the NTR tag but I see one of these "almost NTR" scenes.

It is ntr because it is done to a LI, to the player it is, to the mc it is not.
Simple.

Oh and that's why I said "technicalities" and why "sex with others" tag exist in vndb.
So this tag will help you there in this case.