discussion do you think sharing and NTR are the same?

[JadedSkywalker]

If you make a choice in a game to share one of your girlfriends with another girl in your harem is it NTR. Some say yes. Personally, I don't mind if there are no other guys and they are devoted solely to MC. It's nice when the game creator allows the choice and doesn't railroad one or the other.

 

[Advocatdeus]

Я знаю, что ваш пост был несколько месяцев назад, но я только что его увидел, и он напомнил мне о чем-то, что я видел когда-то с противоположной стороны, так сказать. Однажды я увидел порно, о котором не знал, что делюсь им, пока оно не началось. Это было похоже на просмотр крушения поезда, и я не мог отвести взгляд, не думаю, что у меня бы встало, даже если бы от этого зависела моя жизнь, и, честно говоря, это надолго оттолкнуло меня от порно в целом. Цыпочка все время пыталась привлечь своего мужа, разговаривала с ним, и даже в какой-то момент, когда он был близко к ней, она потянулась к нему, и он буквально оттолкнул ее. Было видно, что она делала это только для него. Ее муж даже не встал, пока другой парень не кончил в нее, а затем муж в основном сделал три нажатия за эти неряшливые секунды и тоже кончил. Представьте себе женщину, которая любит парня, и единственный способ, которым он может встать, это когда какой-то другой парень трахает вас первым, и он даже не позволяет вам прикоснуться к нему, пока другой парень не закончит.

Так что для меня это был своего рода определяющий момент, когда я понял, что на самом деле означает «делиться».

Большинство неяпонцев считают, что NTR — это когда шлюха изменяет парню. Хотя в Японии парень может идти домой с работы, свернуть в переулок и увидеть, как трахают случайную шлюху, затем пойти другим путем и увидеть это снова, повторить несколько раз, и видео будет называться «Я получил NTR снова и снова по дороге домой с работы», потому что там это может быть просто наблюдение (или даже слух) о том, как трахаются два других человека.

Разделение - это одно из двух. Либо когда шлюха убеждает своего мужчину позволить другому трахнуть ее, потому что она хочет изменить, но сначала хочет получить разрешение, и это почти всегда заканчивается тем, что было в вашем примере, потому что женщины не могут одинаково уважать двух мужчин (а если бы она уважала своего первого мужчину, она бы даже не поднимала эту тему), и один будет "лучше" другого. Интернет заполнен историями о "парне моей жены", где другой парень - это явно тот, кто ей дорог, а бывший парень/муж рассматривается в лучшем случае как третье колесо, а часто как мужчина-ребенок, которого жена/подруга и ее новый парень просто терпят, потому что он платит по счетам или что-то в этом роде, но ни один из них не уважает.

Другой тип обмена похож на тот, что я видела: женщину принуждают к этому из-за преданности паршивому парню, которому на нее наплевать, он использует ее как разменную монету для своего сексуального удовольствия и ему все равно, нравится ей это или нет, и обычно оказывается, что парень гей или по какой-то другой причине все равно ее бросает, или она в конце концов понимает, что он того не стоит, и бросает его.

Так что, по сути, если женщина этого хочет, то она просто шлюха, и это NTR с дополнительным шагом, потому что ей все равно на своего первого мужчину, просто не хочется «изменять». Или женщину по сути принуждают к этому и по сути ее «насилуют» мужчины, с которыми она бы не стала заниматься сексом, если бы мужчина, который ей действительно дорог, не заставлял ее это делать, и в конечном итоге это разрушит ее и их отношения.

Так же как NTR и sharing, ну, "нет", но во всех отношениях, которые имеют значение, да, они одинаковы, они построены на тех же эмоциях как на фундаменте и в конечном итоге оказываются в том же месте. Это мои два цента по крайней мере.

Why would you rule out sharing with another man, yet welcome sharing with another woman? Can't there be an emotional connection between women? Why is there hatred for NTR yet MC sleeps with everyone .... So I'm all alpha and I don't care what my partners think about it? It's kind of slave labour. Either a purely single relationship - or take polyamory as a given not only for yourself, but also for your partners.
And polyamory doesn't mean someone in a relationship is a slut. Emotionally, it's fundamentally different.
In games with the Harem tag, the whore is usually exclusively the protagonist. So you could say that everyone who likes to play harem games is a slut. But if they don't like to share or hate NTR, you're a prude.

 

[JoeTheMc84]

Why would you rule out sharing with another man, yet welcome sharing with another woman? Can't there be an emotional connection between women? Why is there hatred for NTR yet MC sleeps with everyone .... So I'm all alpha and I don't care what my partners think about it? It's kind of slave labour. Either a purely single relationship - or take polyamory as a given not only for yourself, but also for your partners.
And polyamory doesn't mean someone in a relationship is a slut. Emotionally, it's fundamentally different.
In games with the Harem tag, the whore is usually exclusively the protagonist. So you could say that everyone who likes to play harem games is a slut. But if they don't like to share or hate NTR, you're a prude.

Despite what our current day, western, post-modern, culture wants to force down everyone's throat: Men and women are fundamentally different. Women can share a man, men cannot share a women.

Women feel love via emotional connection, provision, and protection, which one man can potentially provide for more than one woman. And even a potion of the emotional connection can often be found within the sisterhood of the harem as it doesn't have an intrinsic sexual nature to it, thus making the sharing of the man easier. Not all women would be willing to share, though most will as even evident today in the way hookup culture plays out with some 80-85% of women sharing the same pool of around 5-10% of men as most men today are not engaged in a substantial way in that culture and some 30% of men over 30-years-old are either virgins or have had not had sex in the past year and some 50% of men have had less than three sexual partners while the average for women is climbed to 8 in the past decade.

Men feel loved primarily by being respected. A woman cannot equally respect two men, even just having a boss at work can put stress on a relationship if the woman begin to respect her boss more than her husband. If a sexual manner this is even more true. All of human history bares this out, and it is only in the last 60-ish years has this clear understanding of human nature been tossed aside on a whim, and we see the results and they are not promising in the least.

There is a reason that the internet is filled with cringe-inducing stories of cucks and the outcomes they face, not least of which is the rampant suicide that follows the cuck subculture after the reality finally hits. The world is also filled with stories of post-wall women who wasted their life living "their truth," and "finding themselves," via a "hoe phase," and the troubles they have.

Edit: And of course in a game, hypocrisy on behalf of the main character is not only expected but for most types of games is required to make it work. So even if someone might fundamentally disagree with my assessment of human nature it is actually a moot point. As in games the whole point to bring success to the Mc. Go play the Witcher and ask yourself, "Why is okay for Geralt to kill all these monsters that are just trying to survive and not just let them live?" You also have your answer to why AVN protagonists can be "man-whores" but the love interests should not be whores.

 

[KPIG_TV]

Technically these not the same, but I prefer neither of these

 

[xatfx]

Wow
That's a thread that really stirred up passions!!!

 

[LewdVN111]

Despite what our current day, western, post-modern, culture wants to force down everyone's throat: Men and women are fundamentally different. Women can share a man, men cannot share a women.

Women feel love via emotional connection, provision, and protection, which one man can potentially provide for more than one woman. And even a potion of the emotional connection can often be found within the sisterhood of the harem as it doesn't have an intrinsic sexual nature to it, thus making the sharing of the man easier. Not all women would be willing to share, though most will as even evident today in the way hookup culture plays out with some 80-85% of women sharing the same pool of around 5-10% of men as most men today are not engaged in a substantial way in that culture and some 30% of men over 30-years-old are either virgins or have had not had sex in the past year and some 50% of men have had less than three sexual partners while the average for women is climbed to 8 in the past decade.

Men feel loved primarily by being respected. A woman cannot equally respect two men, even just having a boss at work can put stress on a relationship if the woman begin to respect her boss more than her husband. If a sexual manner this is even more true. All of human history bares this out, and it is only in the last 60-ish years has this clear understanding of human nature been tossed aside on a whim, and we see the results and they are not promising in the least.

There is a reason that the internet is filled with cringe-inducing stories of cucks and the outcomes they face, not least of which is the rampant suicide that follows the cuck subculture after the reality finally hits. The world is also filled with stories of post-wall women who wasted their life living "their truth," and "finding themselves," via a "hoe phase," and the troubles they have.

Edit: And of course in a game, hypocrisy on behalf of the main character is not only expected but for most types of games is required to make it work. So even if someone might fundamentally disagree with my assessment of human nature it is actually a moot point. As in games the whole point to bring success to the Mc. Go play the Witcher and ask yourself, "Why is okay for Geralt to kill all these monsters that are just trying to survive and not just let them live?" You also have your answer to why AVN protagonists can be "man-whores" but the love interests should not be whores.

Much more well thought-out than I expected to see here, but you make good points. As for if they're the same, from the standpoint of definition no, from the standpoint of disgust produced, absolutely the same.

 

[MrJay]

Any difference between them are meaningless to me because I have a complete zero tolerance of either, since the very idea of either one disgusts me.

 

[mikeross]

Never quite understood why NTR and/or sharing gets such a visceral response in the adult-VN sphere. It goes beyond just not liking it and almost to something primal. I mean, these are just games, they often deal with all kinds of topics most people wouldn't want to engage with in reality. So why this topic specifically? Why not for example rape, or torture?

Either way, NTR and sharing are different as per my understanding. The first is unwilling and implies a certain degree of powerlessness, or so-called beta-status, the second requires consent and doesn't necessarily imply specific power dynamics.

 

[User_147440]

NTR is more demeaning whereas sharing is almost more of a confidence thing imho.

 

[Jogur]

Not really. They're two different things. It's basically based on the couple's desire and consent. If a third party is sought to join the couple's dynamic from the beginning with the full knowledge and consent of both parties, it's not NTR, although it could be considered if there's some coercion and one of the parties is reluctant, even if they agree on the surface.

 

[JulianK]

I would say that NTR and Sharing are defiantly different things. As NTR is generally non-consensual for at least one partner (involving at least cheating), and Sharing requires both partners to consent to sex with other parties. If they are similar it would be because they are two highly visible points on a monogamy - free love spectrum. And most people will have some points on the spectrum that they are okay with and others that they aren't. Sharing itself is an entire spectrum, with some people considering it meaning sharing with people outside the relashanship and others considering it to mean any actions between charecters other than the player.

The way the terms are both used odd anyway, since they generally seem to only apply from a male partner's point of view. Or perhaps from the player charecter's perspective, but I don't know how common complaints of Sharing or NTR are for female protaginist games. Many components of harem games would be Sharing or NTR from the female Love Interest's perspective.

 

[MattShizzle]

Sharing is an NTR category.

 

[JoeTheMc84]

Never quite understood why NTR and/or sharing gets such a visceral response in the adult-VN sphere. It goes beyond just not liking it and almost to something primal. I mean, these are just games, they often deal with all kinds of topics most people wouldn't want to engage with in reality. So why this topic specifically? Why not for example rape, or torture?

Either way, NTR and sharing are different as per my understanding. The first is unwilling and implies a certain degree of powerlessness, or so-called beta-status, the second requires consent and doesn't necessarily imply specific power dynamics.

In fact, there is a primal response, as only indoctrinated men, feminized boys, and sneaky fuckers (a technical term, look it up and you will learn a lot and see why every male feminist gets outed as a predator if not out right sex criminal) would not despise cuckoldry in all it's forms. We as men are biologically predisposed to mate with as many women as possible, not to facilitate other men's mating and even more so not to care for and coddle the partners of other men. Men who don't feel this are either lying to themselves for self justification, have been so fully indoctrinated into anti-male feminism that they can hardly be called men, or are the sneaky fucker archetype who has no other means to reproduce than to sneakily take the cast offs of other men or sneak in and claim women when he can and escape if possible.

Another big part of the visceral reaction is that, unlike the other two things you brought up, or even worse things, those other things aren't excused by people saying, "it's just a game, why you mad bro," "It isn't in the game why you upset," or "It isn't tEcHniCaLLy, blah blah..." If rape is in a game, or scat, or bestiality, or necrophilia, or whatever other major controversial tag appears it gets labeled and the folks who dislike those tags can easily avoid them, And also, no one tries to sneak in those other tags. or lies about if they will be in the game. No one has ever made a game and halfway into it dropped random unexpected necrophilia or bestiality. NTR or sharing, or other "Not technically," NTR content get dropped in all the time. AND no one insults people who dislike those fetishes either. If a game did hypothetically have untagged rape, or included surprise bestiality, etc. then no one would call those who complained that it ought to be tagged or the dev should have warned folks before hand names like incels or insecure or the worse things I've heard and been called myself. One of the many ways NTR and sharing are the same, and hence why they are the same in all the ways that matter, is that they are some of the only vain of fetishes you get shamed for not having by those who do. Cucks are the only group so self ashamed of their own fetishes that they hide them and insult anyone who doesn't like them.

NTR is more demeaning whereas sharing is almost more of a confidence thing imho.

Oh yeah, the fabled "Alpha cuck," who "willingly," shares his women. Such confidence, much wow...

I would say that NTR and Sharing are defiantly different things. As NTR is generally non-consensual for at least one partner (involving at least cheating), and Sharing requires both partners to consent to sex with other parties. If they are similar it would be because they are two highly visible points on a monogamy - free love spectrum. And most people will have some points on the spectrum that they are okay with and others that they aren't. Sharing itself is an entire spectrum, with some people considering it meaning sharing with people outside the relashanship and others considering it to mean any actions between charecters other than the player.

The way the terms are both used odd anyway, since they generally seem to only apply from a male partner's point of view. Or perhaps from the player charecter's perspective, but I don't know how common complaints of Sharing or NTR are for female protaginist games. Many components of harem games would be Sharing or NTR from the female Love Interest's perspective.

I fundamentally disagree with this statement, "Many components of harem games would be Sharing or NTR from the female Love Interest's perspective.," but for the sack of discussion I'll assume it's accurate and dismantle it just a bit. The first thing to consider is that hypocrisy in favor of the main character is a fundamental part of every game and every form of media in general. Unless a work is actively using the trope of "we're all the main character of our own story," and trying to subverting it then no one questions why it's "okay," for the main character to do something but, "not okay," when the other side does it. It's basic story telling. Imagine a WW2 game were you play as a Allied spy and there is a level where you have to do counter espionage and hunt down a Axis spy... well, "Why is it okay for the Allies to spy and sabotage the Axis stuff but no the other way around?" No one would even ask this. So why is it that in a harem game folks ask, "Why is it okay for the male main character to sleep around but not for the girls or for some random other guy to have sex on screen," or whatever. The very question is disingenuous and telling about the mindset of the person putting it forward. Even putting it forward is evidence of the asker wanting, not a good faith conversation, but to set up a strawman and to try to assume their position as the default and thus push their own desires and agenda into the thing. Using the example of the spy game, a proper and in fact possibly noble answer would be, "You're not wrong, the Axis spies were the main characters of their own stories, so why not go make a game from that perspective and see how it does? It could be interesting... just don't try to force a random level from some random Axis spy's perspective into this Allied spy game please." But what we see with NTR and sharing is that people rarely try to make NTR games, they try to co-opt harem and vanilla games and force NTR into them.

Also, by definition, every tag requires the main character's (and player's) point of view to be included. What the main character (and player) sees, or feels, is what every other tag ususes for it's definition and this only seems to confuse anyone when it comes to NTR. For example, it is assumed that every character in every story goes to the bathroom, but only if it is shown does the game get the scat or watersports tags, because if the main character doesn't see it, or hear it described in detail or have it impact him then it doesn't matter. This applies to both male and female main characters, however, men and women are different, in fundamental psychological and biological ways. Most female games are created to turn the girl into a slut, often called slut simulators, so the idea is that as a male player who is in control then female character in most of those games isn't actually a character in her own right but a tool to facilitate sex scenes and not much else, thus they more rarely are considered NTR because the conceit is that none of the male characters are getting NTR'ed as they aren't the main character and she can't very well NTR herself so how would the tag even be applied to most female protagonist games? Now the cheating and swinging tags are still often applied to those games, but that goes in large part to the whole point this thread was bringing up and how the two themes (NTR and Sharing) are the same or not. More story driven female protagonist games can get the tag if the female main character isn't just a tool but is in fact a character, but a female cuckquean is very different from a male cuckold. I won't re-hash all the stuff I've written about it else where, I've already written enough.

Sharing is an NTR category.

Correct, this is a big part of my issues. In Japan even most voyeurism would get the tag, it is one of the reason I got into so many arguments on that other site. I learned about it from Japanese sites and people before I started actually posting on American sites and seeing a bunch of westerns co-opt and claim the term and then use it in way that would confuse the Japanese and even saying that if you used it in the proper way you were some how the one in the wrong... well it was both funny and aggravating in the extreme. As an example, one of the first NTR works I saw was a Japanese story of a guy who's mom gets new black boyfriend and the whole story was of him accidentally catching them having sex. It wasn't an incest story, the main characters never even had sex, the whole thing took place inside their house and it was all voyeurism and yet it had NTR in the title because he was forced to watch a female close to him having sex, period, he wasn't even turned on by it and the character was grossed out and not even jealous. But it had it in the title, because in Japan, often any sex scenes that don't involve the main character are considered NTR.

 

[mikeross]

In fact, there is a primal response, as only indoctrinated men, feminized boys, and sneaky fuckers (a technical term, look it up and you will learn a lot and see why every male feminist gets outed as a predator if not out right sex criminal) would not despise cuckoldry in all it's forms. We as men are biologically predisposed to mate with as many women as possible, not to facilitate other men's mating and even more so not to care for and coddle the partners of other men. Men who don't feel this are either lying to themselves for self justification, have been so fully indoctrinated into anti-male feminism that they can hardly be called men, or are the sneaky fucker archetype who has no other means to reproduce than to sneakily take the cast offs of other men or sneak in and claim women when he can and escape if possible.

Another big part of the visceral reaction is that, unlike the other two things you brought up, or even worse things, those other things aren't excused by people saying, "it's jsut a game, why you made bro," "It isn't in the game why you upset," or "It isn't tEcHniCaLLy, blah blah..." If rape is in a game, or scat, or bestiality, or necrophilia, or whatever other major controversial tag appears it gets labeled and the folks who dislike those tags can easily avoid them, And also, no one tries to sneak in those other tags. or lies about if they will be in the game. No one has ever made a game and halfway into it dropped random unexpected necrophilia or bestiality. NTR or sharing, or other "Not technically," NTR content get dropped in all the time. AND no one insults people who dislike those fetishes either. If a game did hypothetically have untagged rape, or included surprise bestiality, etc. then no one would call those who complained that it ought to be tagged or the dev should have warned folks before hand names like incels or insecure or the worse things I've heard and been called myself. One of the many ways NTR and sharing are the same, and hence why they are the same in all the ways that matter, is that they are some of the only vain of fetishes you get shamed for not having by those who do. Cucks are the only group so self ashamed of their own fetishes that they hide them and insult anyone who doesn't like them.

But it is a game. It's not about "men not feeling that way", it's simply separating fiction from reality. Obviously I would vehemently oppose sth like this in real life. But in a game? I simply don't care that much. I can dislike a fetish without the need to start a crusade against it, without letting primal fears take over.

I don't believe anyone said NTR shouldn't be tagged, so not sure why you raise the untagged status, but I've seen more than enough people commenting negative on NTR-tagged games to know that it's more than just a bad "surprise", Besides if those other fetishes you mention are not also excused in the same manner aka "it's a game y u so mad", then maybe they should and that's a problem that should be addressed. Already people are going batshit over lolis and likening it to actual real child abuse, that's not a connection I find proper or even sane. Games are games, reality is reality. Likewise for things like NTR and all the other fetishes you describe.

 

[Petermax77]

they are the same to me. The only dick i want to see is the MC's.

 

[JoeTheMc84]

But it is a game. It's not about "men not feeling that way", it's simply separating fiction from reality. Obviously I would vehemently oppose sth like this in real life. But in a game? I simply don't care that much. I can dislike a fetish without the need to start a crusade against it, without letting primal fears take over.

I don't believe anyone said NTR shouldn't be tagged, so not sure why you raise the untagged status, but I've seen more than enough people commenting negative on NTR-tagged games to know that it's more than just a bad "surprise", Besides if those other fetishes you mention are not also excused in the same manner aka "it's a game y u so mad", then maybe they should and that's a problem that should be addressed. Already people are going batshit over lolis and likening it to actual real child abuse, that's not a connection I find proper or even sane. Games are games, reality is reality. Likewise for things like NTR and all the other fetishes you describe.

Just because it's a game doesn't mean that it can't be taken seriously, in fact, people not taking them seriously is in no small way responsible for the absolute shitty state of all games right now. AAA games included. And AVNs aren't just games, they are a blend between novels and games. They are stories, and stories are literally how humans have communicating every thing in history to each other and taught each other the lessons of life. It's no small thing to say that stories are fundamentally what separate humans from other animals. Thus, stories should be taken seriously because they are serious.

Hopefully you can follow a lateral thought line: saying "It's just a game," is like folks who say, "Star Wars is for kids," it is a way to dismiss those you disagree with. First, kids deserve good stories too, and second if it is "just for kids" then why is Disney adding in gay shit and other adult themes? It's because they know it isn't just for kids and that isn't an excuse for shitty stories, and that they know they can use their stories to influence people, hence why they target kids with their propaganda while simultaneously dismissing the concerns of adults who see it for what it is as them, "taking it too serious." In the same vain, if AVNs are "just games," then why does anyone care? Because we, as humans, know that stories matter, that what people choose to use their time, and often money to engage with, matter. AAA games are learning this the hard way right now. They said, "It's just a game bro, grow up," and their players said, "well, fuck you too then," and now game after game is failing. And I, if I can be honest, don't believe that you, "simply don't care that much." I know too much about human nature. If you didn't care you wouldn't have posted in the first place. If you didn't care that much, then you wouldn't play one game over another game, you'd just play whatever randomly comes up on the latest update page, but I'd bet millions of dollars that you have avoided some games, or movies, or shows. That you have started a game and gave up on it for one reason or another, because you do care. But it's easy to just say, "I don't care, why do you care, seems kind of weird that you care so much about a game," or whatever else folks tend to say to be dismissive of people who just care about a different aspect or part of the hobby then the one you value the most. The implied idea that you are able to, "simply separating fiction from reality," and those who care about NTR just aren't able to do it, is a failure on your ability to empathies, and not on those who dislike NTR. Because the concept isn't that one person (you), is able to "simply separating fiction from reality," and the other person (everyone who dislikes NTR) isn't able to do it... they are also able to "simply separating fiction from reality," they just have a different standard for their fiction and a different desire in the content of their fiction. The so called, "crusade," started in much the same way the irl crusades did... as a response to the aggression of others. I once asked in a thread, "does this have NTR," no implication of if I wanted it or not, and I was insulted and called a "crusading insecure incel," just for posting those few words.

Which leads me to the next point. Now, perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly, but you also seem to be addressing something that is the opposite of what I was saying anyway. One of my points was that part of the response to NTR comes from the way it is treated differently to other fetishes. It is the only fetish I've been called names for not having. If someone doesn't like lolis, to use the fetish you just brought up, no one would call you "insecure," or an incel, for not liking lolis. NTR and sharing are the only ones you get insulted for not having, which causes an equal pushback. NTR is the only tag I've seen a developer lie about if they will add to a game. It's the only one I've seen the fans of say their "favorite NTR games," don't have NTR so it won't get tagged because western fans of NTR are fundamentally dishonest and get off more on seeing vanilla fans stumble on NTR than they do on a random NTR scene or two in a game.

Nothing here is meant as a personal attack and much of what I'm saying is building off what you said for the sake of conversation. The arguments you used are the same ones other have used over and over again and they tell the same story, people who are often disingenuous or just don't want to have to think about it and consider the ideas of others that might disagree with them. If you don't fit that category personally, that's fair and good, and much of what I'm saying isn't directly for you then, you're statements just facilitated the conversation that developed out of them. So hopefully you are capable of understanding higher order thinking and abstraction.

 

[Ayonchicc]

I can't give an example because I'm not a fan of the genre, but I think a necessary element of NTRP is embarrassment/humiliation, which doesn't happen with sharing.

 

[MattShizzle]

I can't give an example because I'm not a fan of the genre, but I think a necessary element of NTRP is embarrassment/humiliation, which doesn't happen with sharing.

If you look at the tags on this site, netorare is what you're talking about. Netorase is another form of NTR. There's also the one of the MC fucking another character's girl, but most people don't meant that as NTR. Sharing is pretty weird unless you're like a pimp.

 

[Akiry]

not at all, and I hate that most game creators seem to think they are the same. I don't like ntr, though I admit games with ntr are usually really well made for some reason, but I like games with sharing content, and having it be a coin toss every time is kind of annoying

 

[Uthuriel]

not at all, and I hate that most game creators seem to think they are the same. I don't like ntr, though I admit games with ntr are usually really well made for some reason, but I like games with sharing content, and having it be a coin toss every time is kind of annoying

Most NTR games are AI GC slop and just my wife a ho garbage. Not sure where you get the idea of well made from. Most of them get abandoned because they don't make money.