discussion The writing side of things (Question for Devs and non devs)

[JohnLongstreet]

I wanted to ask game devs in particular, how much do you focus on good writing in your games? Do you consider it at all, or is it just a means to an end?

I myself am an aspiring writer (but not really of lewd stuff) and as such, this topic is quite dear to me. I inwardly shed a tear, when a Visual Novel begins with the main character waking up from a coma, or is having a dream. Some tropes just instantly kill the vibe for me.

And I'd argue, that learning the fundamentals of story telling is not really hard. How to plot, how to do character arcs and how to write decent prose. Though I reckon prose is not really that important, because of the visual nature of the medium.

Also, a question for non devs: How much do you notice bad writing, and how much does it bother you?

 

[CHEGOBNK]

It's easy to notice bad writing, bonus point if it's bad (Chinese) translation on top of that.

Bad writing with poor plot or stupid characters (not character-wise stupid, but plot-wise stupid like doing something idiotic only because plot won't happen otherwise) can lead me to direction of deleting the game (and making refund if it's steam).

But if the game has at least mediocre gameplay or art style, it blurs out bad plot for me. A lot of good games have nice gameplay and awful plot.

 

[fuzzywuzzy]

Non dev - I usually don't mind overdone tropes but the lack of attention to simple basics (spellcheck, sentence structure) can be a deal breaker for me. It's a really low bar.

 

[CHEGOBNK]

Non dev - I usually don't mind overdone tropes but the lack of attention to simple basics (spellcheck, sentence structure) can be a deal breaker for me. It's a really low bar.

Oh, i haven't even thought about this side. I am opposite - dont really bother with grammatical errors and similar things while it's understandable.
Author can be helped to write correctly but you can't help someone to write good.

 

[i_patchy]

But if the game has at least mediocre gameplay or art style, it blurs out bad plot for me. A lot of good games have nice gameplay and awful plot.

- this. People bitching about "bad writing" in porn are... weird. 99% of AVNS are about Eternal Sex Champion of Multiverse Chad McCockinson going on a sex rampage. Like get out of here and touch some grass man. For me "bad writing" only triggers when game goes in to obvious milking mode and plot just stops advancing and MC instead just start to fuck and fuck and fuck and fuck. At this point i drop even if graphics are decent. Otherwise who the heck cares about tropes? Its not a high brow form of art, its a smut, sheesh.

I said it many times on this forum - writing is of the least concerns for AVNS, its of the least concerns of video games in general. Alot of games that are getting praised for their plots are... not good and more so are highly derivative of the cinema, just like the cinema is often derivative of literature, but in case with video games situation is way more prominent.

 

[CHEGOBNK]

If the renders are bad, and the writing is good, then the game is bad.

Have to disagree. Good plot can save game with poor graphics or gameplay. Higurashi is literally audio novel where you are not supposed to relate to the visual too much and that's one of iconic series of novels.

Good plot can blur bad graphics, good graphics can blur bad plot. It doesn't mean something of these is not important, it just means all parts are important and can support each other.

If I feel that plot is so bad I have to skip it, gameplay and visual must be god-level for me to continue playing it. (I considered as "bad plot" above something that's boring to read but you continue reading it. If you just skip it, it's not bad - it's garbage)

(All above is imo, of course)

 

[AgentOrange]

I think basic writing at least to the point of understanding is a must, even in games like these. Though beyond that I think it can depend on the type of game you are creating. I've worked on a game for years that is mostly text-based and I try to put a lot of effort into the writing since it has to make up for the lacking of visuals in some-cases. Plus, people have come to enjoy the game for the story just as much as the lewdness, to the point where there as been arguments over which areas should be focused on first. But I also know with games like this, a lot of people can look past poor writing to get to what they want or even choose to ignore it to get to "the good stuff", but I think the quality only improves by taking pride in it.

Though my game may also be an anomaly since I filled a VERY small niche. While we have character sprites and some art now, it is mostly just text, so I guess writing is more important in that case since that is the "meat" of the product. Since we have so many characters, that may also be a factor since people can find the one whose personality they like the most. I always thought my writing was bad until I started working on this and the writing is the main praise I get now, so keep in mind that we're always our own worst critic when judging your own writing.

 

[CHEGOBNK]

Good points. I don't know the game you mentioned. Maybe my scope is too narrow? I was solely thinking of the DAZ clones with the typical "step" family plot.

Maybe I am at the beginning of my goon journey lmao

That's When They Cry series, it has nice anime adaptation. It doesn't have any porn though

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But even if it doesn't have porn, most VNs are eroge - they wouldn't be popular without plot, they wouldn't be popular without sex scenes. I don't say all porn games should have high quality plot for dozens of hours of reading but they should keep some quality.

I very rarely play DAZ clones kind of games, they are too low quality most of the time at my taste. One Summer in Loliwood and some games of Dumb Koala may be exceptions but I am not sure if they are DAZ made or not

 

[i_patchy]

I see your point! Art and gameplay are definitely more important than writing. If the renders are bad, and the writing is good, then the game is bad.

- no... not really, my point is that writing quality is of less importance for video games, especially in case with porn. CHEGOBNK is correct by pointing at the gameplay, if it is fun, it can elevate game over its "bad writing" or "bad graphics". But the story itself cant carry a project on its back. This is why LoK series struggled, it had amazing story, setting and writing... but past SR1 gameplay dived down and failed to attract mainstream audience, so devs were barely able to finish series properly because although series reached cult status... you cant make profit on status alone, and for commercial product this is the biggest issue.


In case with porn games, we have HTML games that mostly utilize RL porn, we have AVNS utilizing old illusion/koikatsu games for visuals... and some of them are fun. College Daze is an HTML game and in terms of gameplay it is one of the best VN type games outhere. Cabin by the Lake uses illusion/koikatsu for its graphics, plus its author is clearly in to boobs... big fucking boobs... but the game is pretty awesome, with its story and gameplay built around timeloop. Or Devious World... wich is just pure text, but it is a great old school choose your own adventure type game... with a lot of fucking weird fetishes. Main importance is FUN. Watching protag going in circles to bang his ginormous harem of bitches isnt fun, its tiring, no matter the graphics.


But... but... at the same time in terms of plot/story/writing in the end its all just porn, its a stories that revolve around red headed warrior venturing inside moisty cave... which severy limits actual quality of the story, because it is inherently limited by its smutty nature.


This is why for example i also dont get why CP2077, BG3, Andromeda and Witcher 3 had nudity... it was absolutelly pointles for those type of games. More so, when i was watching "love scenes" it made me cringe ( especially at Andromeda, because it looked like one of those awfull old softcore movies ). IMO out of mainstream games the ones that handled "sex scenes" the best were ME2 and DA2 - supershort, with emphasis on character acting in accordance with their personalities, short and sweet. While prolonged crotch rubbing in those "oh so mature" games with nudity looked... cringy.

And I understand, that there probably won't be world view shattering reading experiences in the Porn VN department. However, I think that If neither the dev nor the player cares about story telling, than why bother at all?

- well, yeah. Thats why if the game isnt working... no one bothers with it and drops. Dev actually could care about about story... but not have enough talent to do it properly... or just have a super weird taste. Not to mention obvious linguistic barriers in some cases.

Why not just put out the renders and be done with it. What ends up happening (for me at least) is that I just skip through the text more often than not. But if once in a blue moon a VN comes along, where I actually enjoy the story, it also greatly increases the other enjoyment.

- some do that... in fact some of the devs migrated back and forth between comix format and AVN's.

 

[SleeplessEye]

Author can be helped to write correctly but you can't help someone to write good.

The "you can help someone write correctly but you can't help someone write good" point is probably the most useful thing in this thread, even if it is grammatically ironic. The mechanics — spelling, sentence structure — are a floor, not a ceiling. AI can patch the floor now pretty easily. What it can't patch is whether you had anything worth saying in the first place.

I think the debate about whether writing matters in AVNs gets muddled because people are conflating a few different things. There's prose quality, there's plot coherence, and there's whether the characters feel like actual people with interior lives. You can have terrible prose and a plot that still generates genuine tension. You can have polished sentences wrapped around characters you couldn't care less about.

writing is more important in that case since that is the "meat" of the product

AgentOrange's point about the text-based game is interesting to me. Romance novels are proof that writing — just words, no visuals — can absolutely carry a story and get the job done. The visual layer in AVNs is a gift, but it also becomes a crutch. If the renders are doing all the emotional work, the characters stop feeling like people and start feeling like renders. Which is fine if that's all you want. But it's also why so many games feel disposable the moment you close them.

Watching protag going in circles to bang his ginormous harem of bitches isnt fun

i_patchy is right that the real failure mode isn't bad writing, it's the MC going in circles with no forward motion. That's not a writing problem though — that's a dev losing the thread of what the game was supposed to be about, usually under Patreon pressure to keep adding rather than finishing.

 

[i_patchy]

AgentOrange's point about the text-based game is interesting to me. Romance novels are proof that writing — just words, no visuals — can absolutely carry a story and get the job done. The visual layer in AVNs is a gift, but it also becomes a crutch. If the renders are doing all the emotional work, the characters stop feeling like people and start feeling like renders. Which is fine if that's all you want. But it's also why so many games feel disposable the moment you close them.

- as i pointed, there are a quite few strictly text based porn games that are absolutely fantastic. The most famous is probably CoC by Fenoxo. The problems is that romance and porn are different, even thou modern low quality "romance" often do trespass in to porny category, in the end it is still different genres. Romance is about feelings, porn is about stroking. And talking seriously about quality of writing in the work that is all about stroking... is just weird. But im in general a videogame story skeptic, so there is that.

 

[Abere Lucifer]

I just write things that I think would be funny. I prioritize comedy over the NSFW stuff with my games. The NSFW stuff is kind of secondary. Some folks like it. Some folks don't. It seems to work out good for me.

 

[Paradigminant]

I just write things that I think would be funny. I prioritize comedy over the NSFW stuff with my games. The NSFW stuff is kind of secondary. Some folks like it. Some folks don't. It seems to work out good for me.

As a writer, you need to play to your strengths. That includes writing what you enjoy writing. Keep on keepin on!

 

[Muskratato]

If you can tell your story with visuals, you really have to find the balance of where the eye is going, during the game. Reading takes some concentration, and draws the eye to wherever it's located. Some formats are standard, and people are used to them, but when overused, get skipped. To really get your story across, you need the player to care enough about the plot. If you write closer to a screenplay, you need the visuals to back it up. If you want the player to get your story primarily through reading, you need to find a way to draw them to that.

- as i pointed, there are a quite few strictly text based porn games that are absolutely fantastic. The most famous is probably CoC by Fenoxo. The problems is that romance and porn are different, even thou modern low quality "romance" often do trespass in to porny category, in the end it is still different genres. Romance is about feelings, porn is about stroking. And talking seriously about quality of writing in the work that is all about stroking... is just weird. But im in general a videogame story skeptic, so there is that.

This is important, because people play these games for different reasons and want different things out of them. If your writing is good enough, the player won't notice.

 

[i_patchy]

This is important, because people play these games for different reasons and want different things out of them. If your writing is good enough, the player won't notice.

- if someone plays PORN games for something other than stroking their relevant appendage, id... raise a brow and say - huh? Im old enough to remember people arguing about literary quality of Twilight and than literary quality of 50 shades and nowadays about literary quality of female gooner "romance" books. I guess, now we entering a new advanced phase of gooning, were people will pretend that stories about Cock McCockingson inseminating his family is a quality read. Oh well.

 

[Paradigminant]

- if someone plays PORN games for something other than stroking their relevant appendage, id... raise a brow and say - huh? Im old enough to remember people arguing about literary quality of Twilight and than literary quality of 50 shades and nowadays about literary quality of female gooner "romance" books. I guess, now we entering a new advanced phase of gooning, were people will pretend that stories about Cock McCockingson inseminating his family is a quality read. Oh well.

I mean, you're just describing having a fantasy. The entire mental component of sex beyond visual stimulation. The how and why of it, not just the what. If there's a point to criticizing the writing, it's that bad/unrealistic writing breaks that immersion. Creating that immersion is the whole point, why we're not just watching porn.

 

[i_patchy]

I mean, you're just describing having a fantasy. The entire mental component of sex beyond visual stimulation. The how and why of it, not just the what. If there's a point to criticizing the writing, it's that bad/unrealistic writing breaks that immersion. Creating that immersion is the whole point, why we're not just watching porn.

- no. Im just repeating my point, that writing is of a lesser importance in videogames. And especially in porn. A point i repeated on many occasions in this and other threads. As for "immersion" part... this is a quite hard issue to pinpoint in general, because for different people the "immersion" will work differently. Especially considering, that most porn already operate in unrealistic scenarios to begin with and are nothing more than a smutty power fantasies. Also considering "indie" nature of modern videogame porn, often a rather personal scenarios for the dev himself. Arguing under such circumstances about quality of writing is just weird. This is not a serious genre - its a smut. And whenever smut tried to tackle some serious issue, i just chuckle. Because it looks dumb and out of place here. Im glad that you are vibing with porn on some deeper level than some other peoples, me including, but at the same time i kinda question, what one can get from reading a smut besides wet panties and a boner?

This all reminds me an old gaymeer debate on the issue of - if videogames are art or not. A debate mostly fueled by very young teenage boys, who just wanted older people to recognize, that playing CoD is the same as visiting museum. Im getting very same vibes right now.

 

[Paradigminant]

- no. Im just repeating my point, that writing is of a lesser importance in videogames. And especially in porn. A point i repeated on many occasions in this and other threads. As for "immersion" part... this is a quite hard issue to pinpoint in general, because for different people the "immersion" will work differently. Especially considering, that most porn already operate in unrealistic scenarios to begin with and are nothing more than a smutty power fantasies. Also considering "indie" nature of modern videogame porn, often a rather personal scenarios for the dev himself. Arguing under such circumstances about quality of writing is just weird. This is not a serious genre - its a smut. And whenever smut tried to tackle some serious issue, i just chuckle. Because it looks dumb and out of place here. Im glad that you are vibing with porn on some deeper level than some other peoples, me including, but at the same time i kinda question, what one can get from reading a smut besides wet panties and a boner?

This all reminds me an old gaymeer debate on the issue of - if videogames are art or not. A debate mostly fueled by very young teenage boys, who just wanted older people to recognize, that playing CoD is the same as visiting museum. Im getting very same vibes right now.

I'm saying there's good smut and there's bad smut. I'm not arguing for high art or catharsis lol. Agreed about authorial bias in the content. But regardless, you can tell a good story or you can tell a shitty story that doesn't draw you in. If you're trying to get me to buy into a smutty power-fantasy story, have it be internally consistent. Make it interesting. It's like bad acting in porn. It just kills the vibe, it makes me notice it instead of fading into the background or actually adding to the scene. Just make the mental aspect of the fantasy make sense if you're going to try and explore that space. Otherwise why have any narrative at all? Just watch animations or stills. No writing necessary.

 

[i_patchy]

But regardless, you can tell a good story or you can tell a shitty story that doesn't draw you in. If you're trying to get me to buy into a smutty power-fantasy story, have it be internally consistent. Make it interesting.

- but it is mostly subjective than. I seen people arguing that certain game is written badly simply because it featured some things that said person didnt liked. Is porn about guy visiting brothel bad if it has nothing but scenes in brothel?

Not to mention, that lets be clear - most porn games never even reach finish line. Can we really say that story is good and immersive if we never seen an ending? Frankly, i personally always grant additional points to any porn game that was actually finished and not thrown away half way to the end. Even if said end is abrupt or sorta meh.

It's like bad acting in porn. It just kills the vibe, it makes me notice it instead of fading into the background or actually adding to the scene.

- isnt its supposed to be that way thou? I never seen a good acting in porn in my life, even in old ones with actual... khm... "stories" in them. Most of it is just a scenes connected loosely with some kind of... khm... "plot".

Just make the mental aspect of the fantasy make sense if you're going to try and explore that space. Otherwise why have any narrative at all? Just watch animations or stills. No writing necessary.

- to make it a coherent product. A purely text based porn relies on descriptive writing. But those things will barely win any awards anywhere anyway. Billy Horsecock suddenly desiring to bang his whole family is a nonsense. But its is a story of probably 50% of existing porngames. And its fine.


Back in the day, one my acquainted professional writer raged at KC for its standard story setup - evil dudes killed protag family. And i was like: buddy, stahp, its a game, a game about dude going trough ranks in order to exact revenge, its fine, it works perfectly AOK for a videogame. Same is true here. If it works - than it works. If it doesnt - than it doesnt. And in the end, it is often on a subjective personal level.

 

[Paradigminant]

- but it is mostly subjective than. I seen people arguing that certain game is written badly simply because it featured some things that said person didnt liked. Is porn about guy visiting brothel bad if it has nothing but scenes in brothel?

Not to mention, that lets be clear - most porn games never even reach finish line. Can we really say that story is good and immersive if we never seen an ending? Frankly, i personally always grant additional points to any porn game that was actually finished and not thrown away half way to the end. Even if said end is abrupt or sorta meh.


- isnt its supposed to be that way thou? I never seen a good acting in porn in my life, even in old ones with actual... khm... "stories" in them. Most of it is just a scenes connected loosely with some kind of... khm... "plot".


- to make it a coherent product. A purely text based porn relies on descriptive writing. But those things will barely win any awards anywhere anyway. Billy Horsecock suddenly desiring to bang his whole family is a nonsense. But its is a story of probably 50% of existing porngames. And its fine.


Back in the day, one my acquainted professional writer raged at KC for its standard story setup - evil dudes killed protag family. And i was like: buddy, stahp, its a game, a game about dude going trough ranks in order to exact revenge, its fine, it works perfectly AOK for a videogame. Same is true here. If it works - than it works. If it doesnt - than it doesnt. And in the end, it is often on a subjective personal level.

I agree with a lot of what you said. Maybe we're thinking about two different kinds of games. One that's about an excuse to display the art, another that's working more with kinks/ideas. As far as "good" porn acting, there's the obvious example of when the performer is actually enjoying it vs faking it. I'm sure I've been fooled, but when you know they're faking, you can't unsee it. The other porn example would be a bdsm scene, something where there's a tension/release progression of increasing intensity to a climax. And I don't just mean physical acts, I mean the teasing. Playing that tension/release. A well-written script can do that to you, a bad one just doesn't have that aspect at all. This is genre fiction, there's nothing wrong with that. If you want to make a haunted house movie with jumpscares, great. We've all seen it before, we're not expecting greatness. But do the genre fiction well, even if the tropes are overused or don't make sense. Don't be boring, have fun with it, don't be lazy.