discussion NTR is not a dream, its a nightmare. Just say NO to NTR!

[User_41889]

I only enjoy the corruption part of NTR, not the cucking or sharing. It's a matter of perspective.
Sometimes there are great NTR games, that feel natural in the overall plot. But those games are very rare.

 

[fidgetspinner]

I don't want to start an argument, but I genuinely wonder what do you guys think of Female protagonist games where the Fem MC is fucking multiple men. I really wonder if your feelings of dislike of NTR come solely from the projection into the main character and having a Fem MC doesn't trigger that because you don't project the same way as Male MC.

Again I want to reiterate I'm not judging or looking to start an argument, I simply don't understand your perspective and wonder if you guys have ever looked deeper.

 

[SeveredRealms]

I have tried to play a couple FMC game and as a guy just cant wrap my head around it. As someone thats very dominant and my male brain just cant see through a females point of view

 

[fidgetspinner]

I have tried to play a couple FMC game and as a guy just cant wrap my head around it. As someone thats very dominant and my male brain just cant see through a females point of view

So in essence your enjoyment of VN is tied to the fact you're projecting yourself as the MC. You're not just puppeteering him, for the duration you are him. Just an observation btw. I just like pushing characters (Male, female, futa, tran) into the most degenerate sexual situation possible. If it means push MC's mother into fucking MC's friend/bully/whatever then so be it.

 

[dickness all around]

I've made enough arguments about this crap.

NTR hate belongs in the real world, but this is a site for sex games. it's not that I prefer sharing scenes but that they bring a lot more content to the table. there's so much you can do with a single dick, so after you've seen sex scenes of 1 man and 1 woman, why not gangbang that woman? you think I'm after Loli and incest content because I enjoy it that much? no... it's just plots we don't often get in sex games. and people will always want what they don't have (in a healthy manner respectfuly, I never wanted to fuck my own family or a kid in the real world, and I never will. you need to be a really fucked up person for that and luckly I'm sane, or at least I believe I am sane. maybe too much, because I get annoyed when I see younger people dress like whores, sometimes I even yell something not nice at the stupid parents. nothing worse than seeing an 11 year old girl dressed like a grown up, just looks creepy man) but here people treat NTR as if these characters were real, like there's a connection, a real one.

I don't like scat content, but if I see a piss scene I'm not gonna freak out and quit an entire game because of it. but those NTR hates are like that, and that tells me they are fucked up in the head. because again... it's just a fucking video game, and if you're so effected by it, it means your real world life isn't that great (this isn't mass effect games where you gain emotional connection to characters, this are just characters in sex games that exist to be fucked and enjoy it, and say what you want about gangbangs, it doesn't get more excited than that) 99% of healthy men in the real world would refuse to share their women with other men. it's the porn and crap that turned many men into weak cucked or devient idiots. but this is a video game, I don't wanna hear any "macho man" pretending he's offended because his fake woman got together with another man. it's not cheating, it's a fucking video game. if any man here is such an alpha man he's actually offended then he wouldn't be here in the first place. people who can get sex don't visit sites like these, not unless they are also addicted to porn. and so whenever I hear "omg NTR I refuse to play/support this game" it just shows me there's a weak sensitive virgin on the other side. and I don't mean to offend anyone but that's just logical conclusion on my part. it's one thing to dislike the NTR genre, it's another to hate it with a passion and cancel an entire sex game because of a couple of NTR scenes LOL...

 

[MicoJive]

I've made enough arguments about this crap.

NTR hate belongs in the real world, but this is a site for sex games. it's not that I prefer sharing scenes but that they bring a lot more content to the table. there's so much you can do with a single dick, so after you've seen sex scenes of 1 man and 1 woman, why not gangbang that woman? you think I'm after Loli and incest content because I enjoy it that much? no... it's just plots we don't often get in sex games. and people will always want what they don't have (in a healthy manner respectfuly, I never wanted to fuck my own family or a kid in the real world, and I never will. you need to be a really fucked up person for that and luckly I'm sane, or at least I believe I am sane. maybe too much, because I get annoyed when I see younger people dress like whores, sometimes I even yell something not nice at the stupid parents. nothing worse than seeing an 11 year old girl dressed like a grown up, just looks creepy man) but here people treat NTR as if these characters were real, like there's a connection, a real one.

I don't like scat content, but if I see a piss scene I'm not gonna freak out and quit an entire game because of it. but those NTR hates are like that, and that tells me they are fucked up in the head. because again... it's just a fucking video game, and if you're so effected by it, it means your real world life isn't that great (this isn't mass effect games where you gain emotional connection to characters, this are just characters in sex games that exist to be fucked and enjoy it, and say what you want about gangbangs, it doesn't get more excited than that) 99% of healthy men in the real world would refuse to share their women with other men. it's the porn and crap that turned many men into weak cucked or devient idiots. but this is a video game, I don't wanna hear any "macho man" pretending he's offended because his fake woman got together with another man. it's not cheating, it's a fucking video game. if any man here is such an alpha man he's actually offended then he wouldn't be here in the first place. people who can get sex don't visit sites like these, not unless they are also addicted to porn. and so whenever I hear "omg NTR I refuse to play/support this game" it just shows me there's a weak sensitive virgin on the other side. and I don't mean to offend anyone but that's just logical conclusion on my part. it's one thing to dislike the NTR genre, it's another to hate it with a passion and cancel an entire sex game because of a couple of NTR scenes LOL...

I treat it like this...I fucking hate pineapple on pizza. To me, why would you ruin a perfectly good pizza by putting pineapple on it. Lucky for me, when someone makes a pizza with pineapple on it, theres 200 other pizzas I can order and eat instead.

That is NTR for me. If you want to put NTR in a game, good for people who want to consume that. Me? I'll pick one of the other 200 games to try instead.

And if you say its a meat lovers pizza, and you put pineapple on it without telling me and I bite into that, im going to tell you how shitty of a pizza that is and order something else. If you cut up the pineapple into tiny bits that "you cant even tell are on the pizza" just to try adding it on, I'm going to tell you how shitty of a pizza that is as you can still taste it, and then order a new one.

 

[dickness all around]

I treat it like this...I fucking hate pineapple on pizza. To me, why would you ruin a perfectly good pizza by putting pineapple on it. Lucky for me, when someone makes a pizza with pineapple on it, theres 200 other pizzas I can order and eat instead.

That is NTR for me. If you want to put NTR in a game, good for people who want to consume that. Me? I'll pick one of the other 200 games to try instead.

And if you say its a meat lovers pizza, and you put pineapple on it without telling me and I bite into that, im going to tell you how shitty of a pizza that is and order something else. If you cut up the pineapple into tiny bits that "you cant even tell are on the pizza" just to try adding it on, I'm going to tell you how shitty of a pizza that is as you can still taste it, and then order a new one.

if the game is filled with NTR then sure, but if it has a few scenes of NTR that you can't press "skip" then that's over the top to me. I don't quit games because someone pee on someone else, that's insane... no one should get connected to a sex game character on a level where they actually feel cheated because a character fucked someone who wasn't the mc.

 

[MicoJive]

if the game is filled with NTR then sure, but if it has a few scenes of NTR that you can't press "skip" then that's over the top to me. I don't quit games because someone pee on someone else, that's insane... no one should get connected to a sex game character on a level where they actually feel cheated because a character fucked someone who wasn't the mc.

Like I said, you do you. For me its not worth wasting time watching shit I dont like when theres 1,000 other games to play. Simple as that.

 

[CF432]

I've made enough arguments about this crap.

NTR hate belongs in the real world, but this is a site for sex games. it's not that I prefer sharing scenes but that they bring a lot more content to the table. there's so much you can do with a single dick, so after you've seen sex scenes of 1 man and 1 woman, why not gangbang that woman? you think I'm after Loli and incest content because I enjoy it that much? no... it's just plots we don't often get in sex games. and people will always want what they don't have (in a healthy manner respectfuly, I never wanted to fuck my own family or a kid in the real world, and I never will. you need to be a really fucked up person for that and luckly I'm sane, or at least I believe I am sane. maybe too much, because I get annoyed when I see younger people dress like whores, sometimes I even yell something not nice at the stupid parents. nothing worse than seeing an 11 year old girl dressed like a grown up, just looks creepy man) but here people treat NTR as if these characters were real, like there's a connection, a real one.

I don't like scat content, but if I see a piss scene I'm not gonna freak out and quit an entire game because of it. but those NTR hates are like that, and that tells me they are fucked up in the head. because again... it's just a fucking video game, and if you're so effected by it, it means your real world life isn't that great (this isn't mass effect games where you gain emotional connection to characters, this are just characters in sex games that exist to be fucked and enjoy it, and say what you want about gangbangs, it doesn't get more excited than that) 99% of healthy men in the real world would refuse to share their women with other men. it's the porn and crap that turned many men into weak cucked or devient idiots. but this is a video game, I don't wanna hear any "macho man" pretending he's offended because his fake woman got together with another man. it's not cheating, it's a fucking video game. if any man here is such an alpha man he's actually offended then he wouldn't be here in the first place. people who can get sex don't visit sites like these, not unless they are also addicted to porn. and so whenever I hear "omg NTR I refuse to play/support this game" it just shows me there's a weak sensitive virgin on the other side. and I don't mean to offend anyone but that's just logical conclusion on my part. it's one thing to dislike the NTR genre, it's another to hate it with a passion and cancel an entire sex game because of a couple of NTR scenes LOL...

You talk about, that people shouldn't get people emotionally involved while playing these games, just because they're porn games, but then you talk about getting emotionally involved with a game like Mass Effect. Now I do ask you, why can people get emotionally attached to characters in games like the latter and should not with the former? Where do you draw the line? I mean, I mainly play AVN made with Renpy, so I can't judge the games with other engines, but the games I play are story driven, you get to know these characters just as much as in games like Mass Effect. Just some examples, did you play Killer7's games? Or the Blackheart games? Or NiiChan's games? They're heavily story driven, you get to know the characters, you get to care for them, not only from the POV of the MC. So why should we have to draw a line? I don't see the point for that. I for one do care for these characters just as much as in other games.

And because of that Netorare, -rase, Sharing and Swinging show content I don't like and not only in my RL but also in these games. In my book, adding it out of nowhere is a red flag. That puts a dev on the list for devs, that aren't trustworthy. I tend to stay away from these devs and their games without adding fuel to the toxicity, that reigns between harem and netorare fans. And I include also lesbian content to that, because for me it doesn't matter if a girl runs of with a guy or a girl. In the end, it's the same outcome and this "lesbian content is hot and every man likes it" trope is just fueled by porn and doesn't reflect reality. In reality, there are quite a lot men out there, that find it either boring or even disgusting. While I find it mainly boring, I do understand it. It falls into the same category of FMC games with a harem setting and the guys, the FMC hooks up with, get together. In such a scenario, everyone would cry out how disgusting it is. And lets not forget the toxicity a lot of netorare fans pour out in threads of harem games by asking or even demanding for netorare content, even after the dev said, it will never be part of the game, just to rile up the harem fans. Especially when they start to call the harem fans betas. And in their own threads, where people just ask, if netorare content might be avoidable, they start to cry how toxic harem fans are. A lot of netorare fans are hypocrites in my eyes right because of these two points. I don't deny, there are a lot of harem fans out there, who tend to rile netorare fans up just as much, just because they think it's funny and go crying about how toxic the other side is. And these are just as much of a hypocrites.

In addition the way some sites and their moderators and admins handle these situation adds additional fuel to the hate. I've seen on Cuck95 how moderators warn devs, even before anything could happen, be it in the game or the dev answering questions, that the harem crowd is toxic and they should not let them stop the dev from making the game, all while protecting the "poor" netorare crowd. And don't forget the poor attempt to stop netorare dsicussions in threads by deleting only the con netorare posts, while leaving the pro netorare posts untouched. This is not how moderation works, my friends! I don't say it happens in all threads, but there are a few. And there are already specific moderators on my personal shit list just because of that. I won't say any name here in public, even if I doubt, that they're here.

In the end, everyone should play the games, they like and avoid those they don't like. And they also should not judge others for how they see and play these games. Asking if a certain kind of content is avoidable is nothing wrong, because if it is, the other side might play and support it also. And more support for these games might lead to a completed game. And let's be real, there are way to many games, that are either getting abadoned or never completed with minimal to no updates, just to milk supporters.

 

[SeveredRealms]

Ever read a good book and it sticks with you years later? Take The Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind. I read every one of those and got attach to Richard and Kahlan and their struggles. What many of you are confusing here is there are not just games. They are Adult Visual Novels.... Or at least most of them. they keyword here is NOVELS. They are stories and some people like normal novels get attached is ingrain themselves with the main characters. It gets even more ingrained when you can rename them and many people actually use their own names.
This is where NTR disturbs many people. They are in it for the story and putting themselves into the main characters place. When all of a sudden the main Lis is thrown into a scene with someone other than the MC is upsets them. It upsets me I hate that shit. I do sometime play games with avoidable ntr buttttttttttttt it has to be 100% avoidable or I wont touch it.
i could say a lot more but I will cut this off here. I will mention however this is supposed to be a thread for anti ntr... Meaning its not supposed to be for saying how good you think having ntr is in AVN's. I am open minded and do not care what a persons kinks are and to each their own but please remember this is a anti ntr thread folks.

 

[h3n741.g33k]

I kinda don't fully understand the NTR wars. I mean I get the terms, like what each of the various kinds and acts are. I understand the plot points and whole venn diagram of conditions. What I don't get well perhaps why I don't get it I guess; I'm a poly. Not polyamourus as in guy with harem of women but like poly as in just open (but informed) relations. I'll get into why later but like, I don't get that there is such vitrole over the genre.

I get most H gamers are into gonzo and view waifus as personal collection items and yatta yatta "... my precious!". I understand that part. The part I don't get is why people get soo mad over it. If you don't like the story why not just rip the images and make a mod/doujin? Video capturing is fairly easy now (unless you got DRM'd) so reworking animations is much more feasible today, and if a ren'py VN is open ended, you can just cut out the chapters you don't like. With so many solves available why waste time raging?

So, the other aspect of this and why I get confused partly. Modern gen appropriates and changes so much. Cuckholding for example, like originally if you enjoyed watching sex entertainment at all (theater troops would do lewd sex on stage for audiences long before redlight cinema came along), you got deemed a cuckhold. In certain eras these even developed small cults, not cult as in manson family but like mystery cults in classical mythology sense aka proto religions. Which is how in part we got the kama sutra. But point is, if you indulge in porn at all, you are being cuckholded because you are watching someone else have sex rather than having sex. When/how did that become watching cheating or 3 ways/orgies (as observer) =cuck?

I ask because monogamy tends to complicate things, particularly with longer series. There's the cheating aspect, but like basically every soap opera on TV, eventually ppl break up and date other people. If you have a srries long enough (particularly with manga/comics) what is the line between NTR of wife/GF swapping and just having one healthy monogamous relationship moving on to the next?

end note as to why I'm poly. So, if I'm dating someone and my partner is bi, well I have a certain set of equipment. If my partner wants the other set, I can't satisfy that no matter what. Same time we call sexual urges as we do, urges, because they are less than controllable. My partner isn't going to stop wanting that other equipment even if they could change that desire, I can't physically satisfy them the same way. Goal of relationships are to make your partner happy right? Allowing/helping them become satisfied to their needs is a priority I want to provide.

Which brings me to the other half of the poly/cuck dealio. The non bi side of poly. So there are many types of intimate relations obviously but for now lets focus on LTR romantic+intimate side.

We form relationships because we find in others shared interests and by doing those things together what is already enjoyabke becomes more so simply from sharing the experience with another person. Yet each person is different which brings differences in ways the same things are enjoyed. By things I don't mean sex acts I just mean spending time doing things together. Oddly enough, if two people spend enough time together enjoying a hobby or interest and are given the opportunity for privacy together, they will probably have sex.

As to the poly/cuck vector of the above, each person is different and doing the same thing with a different person (time spending wise) creates a unique experience. Think of it like going from just regular acquaintences to BFFs. It is something about the other person and the experience of being with them that changes the relationship.

As to how that applies, say my partner and I go to an arcade. I really enjoy X types of game but my partner prefers Y. Say my partner has a friend that also enjoys Y. Going to the arcade is a very different experience for my partner depending if they go with me or their BFF as result. Eventually my partner may want to be more than just friends with their BFF as a result and have an intimate relationship with them.

My goal is my partner's happiness, and though I could play the Y games my partner likes, I would not actually enjoy those games. Additionally, once my partner develops feelings for their BFF, that attraction and desire will always be there. So, way I see it, imo and my views, is to support my partner(s) by allowing them to seek that satisfaction which I cannot provide that way neither of us build a resentment to one another either from suppressing a want or being forced to like something they/you don't in order to compromise and be changed in ones desire simply to "save face" because in the end I will never really like Y games despite playing them to make my partner happy, no matter how long I play them.

anyway sorry for tldr in closing but idk its a complicated thing to explain and I guess that's the simplest/best attempt I can do in explaining it.

 

[jh_smut]

I really don't get the hate for NTR either. I LOVE orgies! The sight, smell and sound of multiple women cumming is so hot, and I loved watching my wife get fucked while she blew me was super-hot! So seeing more than one dick fucking a cutie doesn't bother me at all.

I think the I could be poly with the right people -- I don't get jealous of other people. But it takes a LOT of honest communication. Let's say that one of your partners s spending what you think is too much time at the arcade with her partner. The three of you have to openly share your feelings and validate what the others tell you. Maybe you and partner's partner spend time together, or the three of you do. Whatever makes all of you happy.

 

[JoeTheMc84]

The arguments largely started from Dev’s lying. Saying there won’t be NTR and then adding in that type of content sometimes years later. Even in the past month something like five games have added full NTR, sharing, swinging and such. Many after years of saying they never would. That was what started the “wars” against NTR. It gets worse when (on the other site more than here, but it effected the mindset of fan bases in general) people get insulted for not being okay with it. I’m not a cuck. I don’t like seeing someone I care about getting fucked. I don’t care about the “context” and I don’t want to see it. NTR is the only fetish I have ever been insulted for not having. No one insults me for not liking necrophilia or bestiality. But I say, “Hey, I’m not a cuck, I don’t want to watch a girl I’m having sex with get fucked. It doesn’t turn me on.” And then I get insulted. That’s the problem.

If I, or anyone, asks, “Will this have NTR?” When a new game comes out, and I see the responses as if there is something wrong with even asking. I’ve also noticed that NTR fans fight tooth-and-nail to prevent games from getting the tag. And I baffles my mind how so many NTR fans love games that don’t need the NTR tag, I’ve said it before, NTR fans tend to get off more on one NTR scene being put in a game that faked out non-NTR fans for years then they do off a whole game. Which is why so many honest NTR games fail. Because many NTR fans will more readily support a “vanilla,” dev adding a single scene then supporting a whole game around the concept.

I didn’t even know what NTR was when I first got into AVNs cause I’m not a weeb. But I never liked girls in the games I played getting fucked by others. I’m not a cuck, never like the fetish, and when I realized that AVN sites were using NTR instead of just having a cuck tag I looked into it, and started asking about if NTR was “optional, avoidable, or skippable.” I got pushed into a more “extreme,” anti-NTR stance over time by people repeatedly insulting me for not having a fetish. And then I’d be accused of kink shaming for just saying, “I don’t like it.” Meanwhile I’d be directly insulted and mods (again, more on some other sites) would like those insult posts and do nothing about them.

I get accused of seeing women as “property,” or “things to be collected like Pokémon.” Meanwhile, I’m not the one actively trading women. I like harems. I like the idea of a man who cares for and takes care of women. I’ve also know too much about human sexuality. A women cannot love two men. Because she cannot equally respect two men. It isn’t the same for men, because women and men feel love differently. A man can love multiple women, because he can protect, provide, and care for more than one women. Women literally produce a bonding chemical when they fuck that men don’t. Women who bang multiple men either become numb to it or bond more with one man over another man. After having just two sexual partners a women’s chance of having a happy marriage drops from 90% to 20%.

But all that aside… the reason for the BS you see here on the site is because of lying devs who promise one thing and deliver another. No one would give a shit if dev’s were honest. The “anti-NTR” guys just ignore games that are open about the content. But too many devs capitalize on harem and vanilla fans and then ambush them with NTR/sharing and shit.

But that’s just my two cents. I’ll probably not respond here, don’t feel like arguing. I just wanted to say my piece.

 

[h3n741.g33k]

The arguments largely started from Dev’s lying. Saying there won’t be NTR and then adding in that type of content sometimes years later. Even in the past month something like five games have added full NTR, sharing, swinging and such. Many after years of saying they never would. That was what started the “wars” against NTR. It gets worse when (on the other site more than here, but it effected the mindset of fan bases in general) people get insulted for not being okay with it. I’m not a cuck. I don’t like seeing someone I care about getting fucked. I don’t care about the “context” and I don’t want to see it. NTR is the only fetish I have ever been insulted for not having. No one insults me for not liking necrophilia or bestiality. But I say, “Hey, I’m not a cuck, I don’t want to watch a girl I’m having sex with get fucked. It doesn’t turn me on.” And then I get insulted. That’s the problem.

If I, or anyone, asks, “Will this have NTR?” When a new game comes out, and I see the responses as if there is something wrong with even asking. I’ve also noticed that NTR fans fight tooth-and-nail to prevent games from getting the tag. And I baffles my mind how so many NTR fans love games that don’t need the NTR tag, I’ve said it before, NTR fans tend to get off more on one NTR scene being put in a game that faked out non-NTR fans for years then they do off a whole game. Which is why so many honest NTR games fail. Because many NTR fans will more readily support a “vanilla,” dev adding a single scene then supporting a whole game around the concept.

I didn’t even know what NTR was when I first got into AVNs cause I’m not a weeb. But I never liked girls in the games I played getting fucked by others. I’m not a cuck, never like the fetish, and when I realized that AVN sites were using NTR instead of just having a cuck tag I looked into it, and started asking about if NTR was “optional, avoidable, or skippable.” I got pushed into a more “extreme,” anti-NTR stance over time by people repeatedly insulting me for not having a fetish. And then I’d be accused of kink shaming for just saying, “I don’t like it.” Meanwhile I’d be directly insulted and mods (again, more on some other sites) would like those insult posts and do nothing about them.

I get accused of seeing women as “property,” or “things to be collected like Pokémon.” Meanwhile, I’m not the one actively trading women. I like harems. I like the idea of a man who cares for and takes care of women. I’ve also know too much about human sexuality. A women cannot love two men. Because she cannot equally respect two men. It isn’t the same for men, because women and men feel love differently. A man can love multiple women, because he can protect, provide, and care for more than one women. Women literally produce a bonding chemical when they fuck that men don’t. Women who bang multiple men either become numb to it or bond more with one man over another man. After having just two sexual partners a women’s chance of having a happy marriage drops from 90% to 20%.

But all that aside… the reason for the BS you see here on the site is because of lying devs who promise one thing and deliver another. No one would give a shit if dev’s were honest. The “anti-NTR” guys just ignore games that are open about the content. But too many devs capitalize on harem and vanilla fans and then ambush them with NTR/sharing and shit.

But that’s just my two cents. I’ll probably not respond here, don’t feel like arguing. I just wanted to say my piece.

First off, I appreciate your honest opinion and your openly sharing of difficult experiences. It takes courage to do that, to speak out, speak your mind and speak about experiences/times you felt vulnerable or taken advatage of/bullied and what not. This is honesty and I want you to know it is respected.

I did not make this thread to argue or debate details or semantics and want you to know I will not be doing that here and simply had questions I was seeking some illumination and insight to, and for perspective, I gave a small TLDR of my own opinion for personal POV background.

I feel for you getting bullied into "diversity kink optics" from a predatory stand point, I've been there my self on many different levels and it is truly horrible to experience. I am sorry you went through that and I know some degree of what that is like.

With the devs thing, I do very much understand what you are saying with the dishonest "flip-flop" of the devs. I was not aware that this was the main spark, but it very much makes sense. Not just from narrative POV but from industry standards and ecomonomics side of it as well.

What you may not be aware of, that might provide some insight into the "why" on part of the devs, is the economics point of view. Due to the incessant BS regarding Optics localizations to more extreme and diversified kinks, partucularly the extreme and minority kinks, is that it is pushed to go harder and harder by the industry at every level.

why? because with the hardcore vs softcore dihlemma, hardcore and extreme is far less and more restricted in supply, thus innately is exponentially more profitable. The more hardcore fanbase will openly pay 5-20x more for the same amount of content vs vanilla work. To top this off, you have minority special interest groups, directly funding campaigns to groom and convert softcore industry into hardcore industries under the tax subsiduzed incentive BS of "diversifying". Imagine paying acting talent 2-5x more per person due to rarity and being able to get reimbursed for that work and taking 5x that person's wage out in declared "protected class employee welfare subsidies" per employee at your company. But then its like well the Govt can't fund adult entertainment, if that employee produced ecchi content or content more than just porn (ie T shirt designs or etc) then you can claim it for that.

Again this isn't to argue or debate, but idk help provide some insight into how the industry has standardized itself.

The other factor is platform coverage. Most notably platforms such as FAKKU or other mainstreams, transitioning from pirate/doujinshi, to commercially incentivized only. FAKKU used to have a loli/shota/smolls collection paralleling nhentai and 2nd only to g.e-h or nhentai. Then they went corporate, purged 99.99998% of their pirated library and now its all pretty much solely about LBGTQA and cheating housewives for 80% of their current library.

Their disruption of indie online gamesites was probably the worst when they merged with Nutaku. Nutaku already had destroyed the flash game and web game community from the dot com boom with the exception of newgrounds, but they couldnt kill that one due to AAA industry connections and Furry fanbase but thats a different story.

The amount of online games from late 90s to mid 2010s was so far reduced and now monopoly controlled by Nutake then merging and changing policy to cater to Fakku fanbase that it probably deplatformed and removed about 80% of the porn games on the internet at the time.

The point with this is to show just how incentivized the economic POV and "localization" towards both special interests and the factor of turning vanilla into hardcore, is on the internet.

As to my own POV as poly and experience on net from 1990s'-2010s', up until about 2008 or 2012, not much western "hentai" existed. Sure you had rule34 and e261/furraffinity, but at the time this was clearly western comics/disney artstyle rather than the animation we have today more akin to anime/3DCGI's "hyperanime" or realistic. Add to this, that this was far before the POV/Gonzo porn revolution, and well....

nearly all hentai on the internet was either slice of life date sim, with MC as no-eyed and 3rd pers omniscient or 3rd pov observer in all shots
or
it was full on tentacle/disembodied dicks gang bangs of usually ugly bastard orcs/ogres and monsters or some mytho beast or just full on beastie.

There was no medium almost and largely the only place you could view stuff was either some sailor moon x dbz vanila western paysite or pirating through napster/limewire and eventually g.e-h.

The early internet was not a kind place. But point being on my orig post with pov on watching porn at all equates to yea.... like back then POV/gonzo largely didnt exist. Closest things to it in H/ecchie were "pure vanilla" dress up doll games with occassionally the rare VN accompanying it. AI girl 1&2, Casual Romance club and only a handful of AAA import titles were basically the only options until 2004. These games didn't have POV but had closest thing to it where VN play was you as MC with no visual rep of MC anywhere in game except for CGs or 3D cutscenes, and in such cases, semi transparent, no eyes, no face.

Anyway apologies on TLDR here but felt a strong connection to your answer and again appreciated your honesty and own opinion/experience.

As to kink shame, it's very BS. People have limits and those should be respected. Irregardless of anything. Stupid "one of us" peer pressure conformatism is soo toxicly bad of any community, and since surface web's purge of "explicit" gunk but high fixation on "non-controversial hardcore porn" it's so absurd.

My own kinkshame/bullied exp comes largely from the furry community. I am of neko/kenomimi/monsume monster person kinks yet like all the time communities be like "you shoukd go full on fur/yiff" other wise it's discrim/fake(as in person) of me to rep that. Worst among these are the MLP and Sonic fanbases. Like think you've seen ppl troll n ree for no BS reason? go to a clopping server and ask for "aylmao" humanoid style ponies in the style of the artist "screwing with sfm" or worse, neko style humanoid ponies an watch as the entire server/forum makes it their personal mission to get you to k why s. it's nutballs. Joker style "suddenly everyone loses their minds". That's only way I can describe it really.

As to biology vs harem, like as much as history has been revisioned, as hunter gatherers and lesser evolved humans we were "pack forming" in mammalian animals. We had communal relations highly similar to Lions and wolves. For oxytocin, while yes, even a non-ovulating celebate cisfem has 1000-10,000x the levels of a cismale durring coppulation, cismales do have it to. Largely only durring/immediately after coppulation. Problem being, the sex hormone testosterone and dyhydrotestostorone both inhibit and exacerbate/accelerate the breakdown of oxytocin.

As to early humans, they formed tribal packs, to where tge chieftan was either only one to breed with all the women or the other men would only be allowed to breed by the alpha/chiefs approval. Of humans on earth for 200k+ years, that was the norm up until 180k years ago minimally. Further, like alphas/chiefs would look for "plump strong women with wide hips" to have as many kids as possible, but even up until shakespeare and reinesance, like Romeo + Juliet is about a 16yo male sutoring a girl around her 12th birthday. young teens and kids would basically R gang up on the young women and as soon as they were of lunar cycle, they were fair game.

As to how tribal society also functioned, males could break off from pack/tribe to form their own (but usually was due to being outcast/exiled) to which they would then go around lion vs gazzelle style trying to find women whom could be liberated from their own tribes or stolen and there was no lower limit to their qualification. The lone males would simply deal in trade or steal/abduct but more usually just add lost/exiled women to their own start up tribe.

And from fem pov at time, a man meant protection from big game, food, shelter etc. So they were quick to bond with those willing to have them.

Anyway I've ranted long enough, sorry on huge read, but had some venting of my own and what you discussed really brought out some memories and heloed clarify the "NTR wars" for me. While I was privy to the econ incentives, I had no idea to such visceral fanbase interaction stemming from it. Thank you again for your input.

 

[h3n741.g33k]

I really don't get the hate for NTR either. I LOVE orgies! The sight, smell and sound of multiple women cumming is so hot, and I loved watching my wife get fucked while she blew me was super-hot! So seeing more than one dick fucking a cutie doesn't bother me at all.

I think the I could be poly with the right people -- I don't get jealous of other people. But it takes a LOT of honest communication. Let's say that one of your partners s spending what you think is too much time at the arcade with her partner. The three of you have to openly share your feelings and validate what the others tell you. Maybe you and partner's partner spend time together, or the three of you do. Whatever makes all of you happy.

So, I don't know if you read the other response or my uber TLDR reply to it, but I do understand tge situation much better now with those insights and piecing them together with what I have observed from evolution of western H industry and import from 1994 to present. Yet also bear in mind I am only mid 30s so thats a thing too.

Sametime, I very much get where you are coming from aswell. Growing up on 90s to early 00s H and ecchi, before POV became industry standard, like I never understood why masturbation/sex was soo "non group only/explicitly" in social use. I would have loved as teen or 20 something getting in on orgies or just having frens of either gender/orientation to fap with.

As I got older though and becane more of a history buff on times/current events of 80s, 90s, death of disco, changing of adult and sex work industrt, in particular due to the wake of the late 80s to early 90s HIV/AIDs outbreak, this kind of became a lot more clear as to why it was soo vilified. At same time, for it to have become soo taboo soo quickly vs 1970s disco+hippes you had open orgies in street/,nearly every public bath/massage parlor like its an insanely stark contrast esp when factoring the actual 1-3% of total pop even having the "oh no we can't casual now because of this" which since mid 90s btw like its soo easy to test for.

Stupid Reagan and DARE mindset self censored and revised public health in such a fear mongering status that it went from open orgies frequently available in both public and abundant all around too like now you have to be an "alt lifestyle" and do all this nancy drew code stuff just to even find out who around is down for this or that.

As to poly and trust, idk bout you but the Dishonesty Project was a total eye opener for me. So Dishonesty Project focused on study of cishet normies, amd in that study, like they also did study on early ehookup industry of Adult Fren Finder, Ashley Madison and Fling, but also mainly their focus was on church going monogamous normies. In this they found that in 80%+/- of cases they reviewed, the only factor leading to affair of self dubbed strictly hetero-normal monogamists, be they religious or not

the primary deciding factor was purely opportunity. If they spent enough time with one of opposite sex and had opportunity for at length unsupervized privacy, in 60%+ of cases married or not, they would have a hook up affair. Though those who were athiest/agnostic or religiously nuetral, would have affairs at far less frequency ratio compared to devout christians or catholics.

point being, leave two people of similar pref and aligning genders, alone in a room long enough, and odds are they will fuck. Honesty was also proven to be a factor. In that, though esp cisfems claim aside from humor, no1 quality they seek is honesty/communication...

There is a point to which revealing too much, or too often(annoyance factor) leads directly to partner disatisfaction/resentment and/or loss of interest because they no longer truly "subconsciously" respect your values.

Point being, there is a such thing as too much honesty/openness, this can lead to disgust, loss of respect, loss of surprize/spontinaity etc. It's essentially the dhilemma of "becareful what you wish for" regarding cisfem's demand for honesty. And with most cismales being alhpa dominant to some degree, too much honesty on cisfems part can lead to control issues, over protection/jealousy or just outright loss of trust completely.

This is not to say honesty/communication is not important, just that there is a point to which it is TMI and ignorance is bliss both on annoyance/gross out factor, worry factor and on front of "you can't unknow a thing". Once said there is no true going back.

So it's one of those things you have to get to know each other carefully and know each others limits to find that happy medium of honesty/communication.

Also, people do/can change, but thing project points out, is that unless compelled to do so, most people will not change. Biggest problem to this, is that when a partner is disatisfied with other for what ever reason, they will not tell the partner what they are dusatisfied with, and this leads to loss of interest amd communication. In most of these cases, they found that their partner would also be experiencing similar disatisfaction/loss of interest and had the two communicated both would have been fine with the new direction the other was looking for. Outlining that self censure is largely one of the leading causes of marital/dating strife and anxieties. That we really need to communicate when dissatisfied and work together towards a solution through change on both sides. Yet for nearly 9 of 10 independent cases, both parties will cheat rather than do so.

It's stuff like this that kind of further awakemed me to the societal standard obscurities of monogamy as a glorifued utopian institution. When both socially and biologically we are soo poorly geared to handle it.

For instance, in most cases of affair it is because one or both parties finds a frien they can gripe to about their partner/troubled relationship. That becomes an excuse to spend alone time with that friend and the bond of confidant solidifies the third party relation long before sexual intimacy yet at just as intimate and meaningful of a level. Eventually they further bond over it and it leads to hooking up. If the sex is as good as the bonding, then often it becomes dumping the partner to be with the friend.

On an anecdotal note, in 2008 my first go-round in college, I ended up going through 3 dorm rooms and 2 appartments on room-mate situation, each time except one dorm room having 3+ roomies all male. In the 18 months of accelerated associates degree, every one of my total 8 male room mates, had dumped their GF for a GF who was of a different male room mate at one prior time or another. And all the GFs managed to go through all 8 guys in that same time span. which was absurdly weird for ke cuz i was the 5th wheel "nice guy" friend to all 16 ppl and remained so the entire time. Yet by end of it, they all hated each other except the final person they ended up paired off with. None of these frens or roomies were alt style or swingers and all 16 switches occured "naturally" aka not necesarilly intentional. An it was really just the weurdest and most obscure thing I have ever witnessed to this day.

I literally felt like I was the Steve Irwin of some animal planet observational experiment on college coeds.

Anyway that's it on my info dump rant. Tbh personally I still dnt understand why it's soo uncouth for sex to be a more social thing or even masturbation, since almost all of us want it, and most of us all do it.

 

[94-kun]

As for me, NTR is really not my type. However I'm completely okay with sharing, orgy and polyamory. The reason why I said that was, in the case for NTR, it feels like someone would appear out of nowhere, humping the wife while the husband was forced to watch that. To me, this feels like rape/non-con which I also don't like.
Because of that, I personally prefer people who are okay with sharing with each other while having consent at the same time. AVNs like the Insexual Awakening series and this newest AVN called Libertine which contains sharing but not NTR, cuckolding nor cheating.

 

[h3n741.g33k]

As for me, NTR is really not my type. However I'm completely okay with sharing, orgy and polyamory. The reason why I said that was, in the case for NTR, it feels like someone would appear out of nowhere, humping the wife while the husband was forced to watch that. To me, this feels like rape/non-con which I also don't like.
Because of that, I personally prefer people who are okay with sharing with each other while having consent at the same time. AVNs like the Insexual Awakening series and this newest AVN called Libertine which contains sharing but not NTR, cuckolding nor cheating.

makes sense. On like NTR out of blue, I feel thats most likely a thing more to do with limited or poor story development. With for instance most one shot manga chapters, you only have 8-32 ish pages to do it all in. So most short series or one off chapters just dive right into the "lewding" with like 0 story set up. In case of AVNs, particularly indie, with focus on getting prototypes out quick/ASAP, lack of story may simply be to rush the "plot" content innrelease. Demo/exposé of the lewd content sample first, then if their is interest development of story from there. But then every dev is different and there are cases (particularly with "sleep-o-philes) where roof/non-con is the draw from what I've gathered.

 

[jh_smut]

So, I don't know if you read the other response or my uber TLDR reply to it, but I do understand tge situation much better now with those insights and piecing them together with what I have observed from evolution of western H industry and import from 1994 to present. Yet also bear in mind I am only mid 30s so thats a thing too.

Sametime, I very much get where you are coming from aswell. Growing up on 90s to early 00s H and ecchi, before POV became industry standard, like I never understood why masturbation/sex was soo "non group only/explicitly" in social use. I would have loved as teen or 20 something getting in on orgies or just having frens of either gender/orientation to fap with.

As I got older though and becane more of a history buff on times/current events of 80s, 90s, death of disco, changing of adult and sex work industrt, in particular due to the wake of the late 80s to early 90s HIV/AIDs outbreak, this kind of became a lot more clear as to why it was soo vilified. At same time, for it to have become soo taboo soo quickly vs 1970s disco+hippes you had open orgies in street/,nearly every public bath/massage parlor like its an insanely stark contrast esp when factoring the actual 1-3% of total pop even having the "oh no we can't casual now because of this" which since mid 90s btw like its soo easy to test for.

Stupid Reagan and DARE mindset self censored and revised public health in such a fear mongering status that it went from open orgies frequently available in both public and abundant all around too like now you have to be an "alt lifestyle" and do all this nancy drew code stuff just to even find out who around is down for this or that.

As to poly and trust, idk bout you but the Dishonesty Project was a total eye opener for me. So Dishonesty Project focused on study of cishet normies, amd in that study, like they also did study on early ehookup industry of Adult Fren Finder, Ashley Madison and Fling, but also mainly their focus was on church going monogamous normies. In this they found that in 80%+/- of cases they reviewed, the only factor leading to affair of self dubbed strictly hetero-normal monogamists, be they religious or not

the primary deciding factor was purely opportunity. If they spent enough time with one of opposite sex and had opportunity for at length unsupervized privacy, in 60%+ of cases married or not, they would have a hook up affair. Though those who were athiest/agnostic or religiously nuetral, would have affairs at far less frequency ratio compared to devout christians or catholics.

point being, leave two people of similar pref and aligning genders, alone in a room long enough, and odds are they will fuck. Honesty was also proven to be a factor. In that, though esp cisfems claim aside from humor, no1 quality they seek is honesty/communication...

There is a point to which revealing too much, or too often(annoyance factor) leads directly to partner disatisfaction/resentment and/or loss of interest because they no longer truly "subconsciously" respect your values.

Point being, there is a such thing as too much honesty/openness, this can lead to disgust, loss of respect, loss of surprize/spontinaity etc. It's essentially the dhilemma of "becareful what you wish for" regarding cisfem's demand for honesty. And with most cismales being alhpa dominant to some degree, too much honesty on cisfems part can lead to control issues, over protection/jealousy or just outright loss of trust completely.

This is not to say honesty/communication is not important, just that there is a point to which it is TMI and ignorance is bliss both on annoyance/gross out factor, worry factor and on front of "you can't unknow a thing". Once said there is no true going back.

So it's one of those things you have to get to know each other carefully and know each others limits to find that happy medium of honesty/communication.

Also, people do/can change, but thing project points out, is that unless compelled to do so, most people will not change. Biggest problem to this, is that when a partner is disatisfied with other for what ever reason, they will not tell the partner what they are dusatisfied with, and this leads to loss of interest amd communication. In most of these cases, they found that their partner would also be experiencing similar disatisfaction/loss of interest and had the two communicated both would have been fine with the new direction the other was looking for. Outlining that self censure is largely one of the leading causes of marital/dating strife and anxieties. That we really need to communicate when dissatisfied and work together towards a solution through change on both sides. Yet for nearly 9 of 10 independent cases, both parties will cheat rather than do so.

It's stuff like this that kind of further awakemed me to the societal standard obscurities of monogamy as a glorifued utopian institution. When both socially and biologically we are soo poorly geared to handle it.

For instance, in most cases of affair it is because one or both parties finds a frien they can gripe to about their partner/troubled relationship. That becomes an excuse to spend alone time with that friend and the bond of confidant solidifies the third party relation long before sexual intimacy yet at just as intimate and meaningful of a level. Eventually they further bond over it and it leads to hooking up. If the sex is as good as the bonding, then often it becomes dumping the partner to be with the friend.

On an anecdotal note, in 2008 my first go-round in college, I ended up going through 3 dorm rooms and 2 appartments on room-mate situation, each time except one dorm room having 3+ roomies all male. In the 18 months of accelerated associates degree, every one of my total 8 male room mates, had dumped their GF for a GF who was of a different male room mate at one prior time or another. And all the GFs managed to go through all 8 guys in that same time span. which was absurdly weird for ke cuz i was the 5th wheel "nice guy" friend to all 16 ppl and remained so the entire time. Yet by end of it, they all hated each other except the final person they ended up paired off with. None of these frens or roomies were alt style or swingers and all 16 switches occured "naturally" aka not necesarilly intentional. An it was really just the weurdest and most obscure thing I have ever witnessed to this day.

I literally felt like I was the Steve Irwin of some animal planet observational experiment on college coeds.

Anyway that's it on my info dump rant. Tbh personally I still dnt understand why it's soo uncouth for sex to be a more social thing or even masturbation, since almost all of us want it, and most of us all do it.

Thanks for this reply. The late 60s and early 70s were a great time for sex. I was in my early twenties in the 70s, girls were on the pill, and pretty much all STDs were easily treated (the worst was the "super-gonorrhea" that the GIs brought back from Viet Nam but even that wasn't too bad. It wasn't quite "everyone bangs everyone else" but even a nerd like me was gettin' some! Then came AIDS which froze things up a bit. The porn stars DEMANDED test sites so anyone could get tested. it was a bit more difficult, but I was able to find and bang cute chicks. I'm too old and too married now, but the orgy scene is still fairly active in NYC (less so in Los Angeles)

It's true that there can be too much honesty but if everyone remembers "We're doing this because we love each other" and "I won't be a jerk", problems should work itself out.

 

[jh_smut]

As for me, NTR is really not my type. However I'm completely okay with sharing, orgy and polyamory. The reason why I said that was, in the case for NTR, it feels like someone would appear out of nowhere, humping the wife while the husband was forced to watch that. To me, this feels like rape/non-con which I also don't like.
Because of that, I personally prefer people who are okay with sharing with each other while having consent at the same time. AVNs like the Insexual Awakening series and this newest AVN called Libertine which contains sharing but not NTR, cuckolding nor cheating.

I'm OK with mind control (which is honestly a form of rape but it's all fantasy) but sudden non-con in a consensual game would be jarring at best

 

[walld]

The problem seems to mostly stem from the immersive element into a fantasy world of the player's creation. Some players don't like the idea of sharing any of the imaginary characters with any other imaginary characters, and feel like the MC imaginary dick is the only one allowed to perform specific actions.