discussion Complete VN Ren'Py DAZ The Guardian [v1.0.0] [Blackheart Games]

[Nicest_Incest]

Question is the guardian complete?

Yes. The sequel is 15 years after the end.

 

[Som90]

I'm sorry to say that I had higher expectations for this game.
It was difficult for me to find prior to joining LC, and it was part of Blackheart, of whom I've played part of their Assistant game. I had found the plot of that game good, but the content too much for me.
I'm glad to say the content of this one wasn't too much, but the story seems off the rails most of the time, a bit difficult to follow. And on top of that, the characters feel very, unreal.
I know this is subjective, and I hope others like it more; I just feel like the writing could have been greatly improved...

It makes me wary of trying other games from them like Hotel, which I feel was made around the same time.

 

[Nicest_Incest]

I'm sorry to say that I had higher expectations for this game.
It was difficult for me to find prior to joining LC, and it was part of Blackheart, of whom I've played part of their Assistant game. I had found the plot of that game good, but the content too much for me.
I'm glad to say the content of this one wasn't too much, but the story seems off the rails most of the time, a bit difficult to follow. And on top of that, the characters feel very, unreal.
I know this is subjective, and I hope others like it more; I just feel like the writing could have been greatly improved...

It makes me wary of trying other games from them like Hotel, which I feel was made around the same time.

Haven't tried the rework but BHH was his first AVN and it shows and is almost universally often shat on in reviews. TG was ok to me even though I'm not a huge fan of mafia stories (enjoyed watching Goodfellas, The Godfather, etc but if you go in expecting that level in a porn game you will be disappointed). BHH I just couldn't get into, even ignoring the plot holes as best I could. Prob the best part I remember about TG other than Jane's scenes (one of the cutest lolis imo) was

Spoiler

when it was revealed that Lilith wasn't just his sister but also his daughter since the MC was molested by his mom when he was 10 and she ended up pregnant from it.

That was quite the plot twist.

 

[Som90]

Haven't tried the rework but BHH was his first AVN and it shows and is almost universally often shat on in reviews. TG was ok to me even though I'm not a huge fan of mafia stories (enjoyed watching Goodfellas, The Godfather, etc but if you go in expecting that level in a porn game you will be disappointed). BHH I just couldn't get into, even ignoring the plot holes as best I could. Prob the best part I remember about TG other than Jane's scenes (one of the cutest lolis imo) was

Spoiler

when it was revealed that Lilith wasn't just his sister but also his daughter since the MC was molested by his mom when he was 10 and she ended up pregnant from it.

That was quite the plot twist.

There were a lot of plot twists, but that's part of my issue I think? I don't mind a crazy story with plot twists in it, but these feel rather ham fisted. Knowing that BHH was one of their earlier works helps me reconcile the writing in TG, but not enough for me to be able to enjoy it.

The girls can be cute, but they feel very fake to me.
I don't think it's a bad game, but it's not to my taste sadly.

I will see if any of their other games seem ok as I go through the list, but I did skip over one of theirs today because of the tags and my experience so far with the games I have played.

 

[Nicest_Incest]

There were a lot of plot twists, but that's part of my issue I think? I don't mind a crazy story with plot twists in it, but these feel rather ham fisted. Knowing that BHH was one of their earlier works helps me reconcile the writing in TG, but not enough for me to be able to enjoy it.

The girls can be cute, but they feel very fake to me.
I don't think it's a bad game, but it's not to my taste sadly.

I will see if any of their other games seem ok as I go through the list, but I did skip over one of theirs today because of the tags and my experience so far with the games I have played.

Blackheart in general is definitely an acquired taste. Probably the light path in TG or maybe SWP is as "light" as it gets. He really doesn't do Mr. Nice MC's. Just about all of them the path choices are generally Horny Asshole MC or Sadistic Psychopath MC.

 

[Som90]

Blackheart in general is definitely an acquired taste. Probably the light path in TG or maybe SWP is as "light" as it gets. He really doesn't do Mr. Nice MC's. Just about all of them the path choices are generally Horny Asshole MC or Sadistic Psychopath MC.

Noted, I believe I actually just downloaded SWP, not even noticing it was Blackheart. I'll be sure to give that a go when I can.
I'm definitely willing to give them a chance, like I said the Assistant had good writing, but ya I'd have to come to grips with the content.

 

[RushdiaAhmad74]

why this ended so soon, I miss U

 

[pgm_01]

why this ended so soon, I miss U

There is a sequel here.

 

[Beduin123]

like I said the Assistant had good writing, but ya I'd have to come to grips with the content.

My problem with the BH games is not the content, the darkest part of which is usually avoidable, but the plot which is often a convoluted mess of rather unplausible plotlines. As far as I understand, when Seath starts writing the story he doesn't have a clear vision of the plot and takes it off the top of his head as it develops. And also he believes that the more unexpected plot twists he throws in, the better. The result as I said is often very messy and inconsistent.

Still the team has my respect for thinking out of the box and being not afraid to touch controversial topics.

 

[Nicest_Incest]

My problem with the BH games is not the content, the darkest part of which is usually avoidable, but the plot which is often a convoluted mess of rather unplausible plotlines. I far as I understand, when Seath starts writing the story he doesn't have a clear vision of the plot and takes it off the top of his head as it develops. And also he believes that the more unexpected plot twists he throws in, the better. The result as I said is often very messy and inconsistent.

Still the team has my respect for thinking out of the box and being not afraid to touch controversial topics.

Alot of devs do that unfortunately, wing it from one update to the next. It would probably go far more smoothly if the entire story was written first at least, so much shit could be avoided like having to rework it later or writing yourself into a corner and then abandoning it as often happens around the halfway point. Sadly most are in a hurry to make a buck asap instead of take a year or 2 to write it all first.

 

[Beduin123]

Alot of devs do that unfortunately, wing it from one update to the next. It would probably go far more smoothly if the entire story was written first at least, so much shit could be avoided like having to rework it later or writing yourself into a corner and then abandoning it as often happens around the halfway point. Sadly most are in a hurry to make a buck asap instead of take a year or 2 to write it all first.

That's why if the Dev doesn't have any well developed ideas for the plot, it is better to keep it straight and simple. Like SSP for example, basically just a story about fucking all your blood relatives. But how good it is implemented.

Instead of piling a lame plot twist on the top of a silly plot twist, it is better to concentrate on the interaction of characters. I love how Seath writes his characters. Some of them are my absolutely favorite ones, for example Lilith, Savanna, Jane and the Twins from this game, or Rachel and Mandy from the Personal Assistant. But when it comes to the plot I hate him for being unable to get it to the point.

 

[Rickarus]

Alot of devs do that unfortunately, wing it from one update to the next. It would probably go far more smoothly if the entire story was written first at least, so much shit could be avoided like having to rework it later or writing yourself into a corner and then abandoning it as often happens around the halfway point. Sadly most are in a hurry to make a buck asap instead of take a year or 2 to write it all first.

To be fair, a lot of devs don't have the time or money to write a whole story out before they even start trying to make money, only to then find out that the time they spent writing was entirely wasted and the game they spent - potentially - over a year writing while bringing in no income is something that barely anyone is interested in, and now they're making no money, and have to spend another year or two working on another story to try again.

A better idea is to decide on the major plot points, a strict stance on tags, and a good idea on how much "side story/characters" vs "main story/characters" content you want, and how long you want the game to last. Then just making sure to stick with that. That allows some ability to quickly get started at making money, and to have some flexibility, without going completely off the rails.

 

[Som90]

My problem with the BH games is not the content, the darkest part of which is usually avoidable, but the plot which is often a convoluted mess of rather unplausible plotlines. As far as I understand, when Seath starts writing the story he doesn't have a clear vision of the plot and takes it off the top of his head as it develops. And also he believes that the more unexpected plot twists he throws in, the better. The result as I said is often very messy and inconsistent.

Still the team has my respect for thinking out of the box and being not afraid to touch controversial topics.

I quite agree, that's what put me off of the Guardian I feel.

Alot of devs do that unfortunately, wing it from one update to the next. It would probably go far more smoothly if the entire story was written first at least, so much shit could be avoided like having to rework it later or writing yourself into a corner and then abandoning it as often happens around the halfway point. Sadly most are in a hurry to make a buck asap instead of take a year or 2 to write it all first.

I also feel this is why so many games have, what should I call it? LI Creep?
Where we go from 4 LIs to 8 to 24?

That's why if the Dev doesn't have any well developed ideas for the plot, it is better to keep it straight and simple. Like SSP for example, basically just a story about fucking all your blood relatives. But how good it is implemented.

Instead of piling a lame plot twist on the top of a silly plot twist, it is better to concentrate on the interaction of characters. I love how Seath writes his characters. Some of them are my absolutely favorite ones, for example Lilith, Savanna, Jane and the Twins from this game, or Rachel and Mandy from the Personal Assistant. But when it comes to the plot I hate him for being unable to get it to the point.

I don't know, the characters in this one just feel; really fake. The interactions are just as implausible as many of the twists? But at the same time, that's just the way I feel about it.

To be fair, a lot of devs don't have the time or money to write a whole story out before they even start trying to make money, only to then find out that the time they spent writing was entirely wasted and the game they spent - potentially - over a year writing while bringing in no income is something that barely anyone is interested in, and now they're making no money, and have to spend another year or two working on another story to try again.

A better idea is to decide on the major plot points, a strict stance on tags, and a good idea on how much "side story/characters" vs "main story/characters" content you want, and how long you want the game to last. Then just making sure to stick with that. That allows some ability to quickly get started at making money, and to have some flexibility, without going completely off the rails.

This I can see as valid, but I do think that any story should have a beginning and end in mind well before pen is put to paper; and then the middle is what you flesh out as you go.
The anti-capitalist in me thinks we might get better content though if making money wasn't the goal; if it was a passion project with no care for funding then they also wouldn't be beholden to legal systems and could keep their true names (and bank accounts) unattached, and safe.

But I also feel that the people that make it their job have more motivation to make a good product... so I guess it's a little catch 22.
But I definitely feel that all the stories that involve incest and other legal gray areas get fucked over by monetization.

 

[Rickarus]

I quite agree, that's what put me off of the Guardian I feel.



I also feel this is why so many games have, what should I call it? LI Creep?
Where we go from 4 LIs to 8 to 24?


I don't know, the characters in this one just feel; really fake. The interactions are just as implausible as many of the twists? But at the same time, that's just the way I feel about it.


This I can see as valid, but I do think that any story should have a beginning and end in mind well before pen is put to paper; and then the middle is what you flesh out as you go.
The anti-capitalist in me thinks we might get better content though if making money wasn't the goal; if it was a passion project with no care for funding then they also wouldn't be beholden to legal systems and could keep their true names (and bank accounts) unattached, and safe.

But I also feel that the people that make it their job have more motivation to make a good product... so I guess it's a little catch 22.
But I definitely feel that all the stories that involve incest and other legal gray areas get fucked over by monetization.

Yeah, unfortunately, unless you want super short games, or games that take literal decades to get finished, you have to accept these games need to be monetized in some way for devs to actually be able to work on them the amount of time it takes to make them. And that's not even taking into account the cost of a computer that can actually do the kind of rendering work it takes to make a halfway decent looking game, much less in any reasonable amount of time, and that's before we start thinking about animations. And then exponentially increase the time if you have the dev making real alterations to the models, as opposed to just slightly mixing and matching base models from whichever program they use, be that Daz, Honey Select, or whatever else.

At the same time, I do think it's almost a good thing that there is that barrier to entry there, as it prevents the space from being even more flooded than it already is with everyone and their brother trying to make an AVN in the hopes of possibly making a few bucks. The fact that it requires a decent PC and a decent time investment to make anything worth playing may make it harder for devs to make passion projects (unless they do it as a second or third game when they have writer's block on their main game that is making them money) also helps keep the amount of absolute slop to a somewhat minimum. It's still certainly there, but there's far less than there could be.

 

[Som90]

Yeah, unfortunately, unless you want super short games, or games that take literal decades to get finished, you have to accept these games need to be monetized in some way for devs to actually be able to work on them the amount of time it takes to make them. And that's not even taking into account the cost of a computer that can actually do the kind of rendering work it takes to make a halfway decent looking game, much less in any reasonable amount of time, and that's before we start thinking about animations. And then exponentially increase the time if you have the dev making real alterations to the models, as opposed to just slightly mixing and matching base models from whichever program they use, be that Daz, Honey Select, or whatever else.

At the same time, I do think it's almost a good thing that there is that barrier to entry there, as it prevents the space from being even more flooded than it already is with everyone and their brother trying to make an AVN in the hopes of possibly making a few bucks. The fact that it requires a decent PC and a decent time investment to make anything worth playing may make it harder for devs to make passion projects (unless they do it as a second or third game when they have writer's block on their main game that is making them money) also helps keep the amount of absolute slop to a somewhat minimum. It's still certainly there, but there's far less than there could be.

This is going to be true for many games
But it's not out of the realm of possibility, just an unreasonable hope.

PCs like that are not super rare, most gamers would have a rig that qualifies for it; so there is proof that people will spend that kind of money for themselves rather than business.
It's one of the reasons why I considered taking a try at making AVNs too; my rig can render and do animations, and I already have it for personal reasons. The problem with me is skill and time; I know next to nothing about 3d modelling and don't really have the time to dedicate to learning. But I've had some story ideas bounce around since I started reading, and I've thought about how some of the stories I've read could really use a good editor or translator.

But yes, your point stands and I agree with it, even if I'm not particularly stoked about it.

 

[Rickarus]

This is going to be true for many games
But it's not out of the realm of possibility, just an unreasonable hope.

PCs like that are not super rare, most gamers would have a rig that qualifies for it; so there is proof that people will spend that kind of money for themselves rather than business.
It's one of the reasons why I considered taking a try at making AVNs too; my rig can render and do animations, and I already have it for personal reasons. The problem with me is skill and time; I know next to nothing about 3d modelling and don't really have the time to dedicate to learning. But I've had some story ideas bounce around since I started reading, and I've thought about how some of the stories I've read could really use a good editor or translator.

But yes, your point stands and I agree with it, even if I'm not particularly stoked about it.

I do agree that most gamers could get into rendering and animations. But there is an absolutely massive chasm between being able to do it, and being able to do it with any speed and efficiency.

Even a somewhat decent laptop from the mid 2010s is able to do 3d rendering and animations, but it will take absolutely forever, and the quality will be sub-par. There are certainly devs that get started doing just that, and then upgrade as they go, and - at least in many cases - go back and update their early work once they have better hardware. But to really get to a level of being able to efficiently doing it in a way that one could justifiably make a game with any real efficiency, a person needs a computer that is more workstation than gaming-focused. Generally it's going to need more RAM, a higher thread (rather than just a faster) CPU, etc. The only real thing that's definitely transferable is going to be the GPU, although many gamers will usually be fine with mid-level GPUs, while someone serious about efficiently doing rendering (and especially animations) would likely want to go up to the halo cards for the sheer rendering power.

Of course there's a lot of room in the middle for people to try their hand at it, and some people are able to make due with lower specs, but my main point is that it is certainly not cheap - even before getting into the electricity and time cost - to do this, which is why devs writing games "on the fly" is generally the best system we're going to have, as long as there's a chance that spending a year or two completely writing an entire story, and then having it not connect with anyone is a real possibility, and being thrown back to square one with nothing to show for it, is just not a reasonable expectation.

But I agree that there needs to be end goals set out from the beginning, and intentions for major plot points, with ideas of when/how they will occur. And then a dev can adapt everything else based on how people react to things. Move things faster or slower if people are getting restless or really jiving. Make a side character more prominent if people like them, or cut them out if people hate them. And so on.

 

[Som90]

I do agree that most gamers could get into rendering and animations. But there is an absolutely massive chasm between being able to do it, and being able to do it with any speed and efficiency.

Even a somewhat decent laptop from the mid 2010s is able to do 3d rendering and animations, but it will take absolutely forever, and the quality will be sub-par. There are certainly devs that get started doing just that, and then upgrade as they go, and - at least in many cases - go back and update their early work once they have better hardware. But to really get to a level of being able to efficiently doing it in a way that one could justifiably make a game with any real efficiency, a person needs a computer that is more workstation than gaming-focused. Generally it's going to need more RAM, a higher thread (rather than just a faster) CPU, etc. The only real thing that's definitely transferable is going to be the GPU, although many gamers will usually be fine with mid-level GPUs, while someone serious about efficiently doing rendering (and especially animations) would likely want to go up to the halo cards for the sheer rendering power.

Of course there's a lot of room in the middle for people to try their hand at it, and some people are able to make due with lower specs, but my main point is that it is certainly not cheap - even before getting into the electricity and time cost - to do this, which is why devs writing games "on the fly" is generally the best system we're going to have, as long as there's a chance that spending a year or two completely writing an entire story, and then having it not connect with anyone is a real possibility, and being thrown back to square one with nothing to show for it, is just not a reasonable expectation.

But I agree that there needs to be end goals set out from the beginning, and intentions for major plot points, with ideas of when/how they will occur. And then a dev can adapt everything else based on how people react to things. Move things faster or slower if people are getting restless or really jiving. Make a side character more prominent if people like them, or cut them out if people hate them. And so on.

I love your insight into this honestly; I hadn't considered other hardware requirements. My rig is probably as good as it is because I went overboard when I got it, but I can almost guarantee I'd be CPU bottlenecked in hindsight.

But I feel your post provides a good window into why AVNs are the way they currently are; and thinking about it, render quality has such a huge impact on whether a game gets off the ground or not.

Thanks for weighing in on this, I feel like I've come out with a refreshed outlook on AVN devs.

 

[Sunsett]

Ok let's go!, I would like to ask a question to everyone who has played this title. I couldn't help but notice that, like other games from the creator of The Guardian, are these games sequels to each other? Or can I play randomly? because I realized that in the middle of the story of this game, it is possible to find a character from another game in the franchise. To everyone who has played the creator's games, where should I start?

 

[Montimer]

Ok let's go!, I would like to ask a question to everyone who has played this title. I couldn't help but notice that, like other games from the creator of The Guardian, are these games sequels to each other? Or can I play randomly? because I realized that in the middle of the story of this game, it is possible to find a character from another game in the franchise. To everyone who has played the creator's games, where should I start?

They are tied together in terms of the universe.
Direct quote from Seath that's in other game's comments:

The order is BHH, which is trash. it was my first game, but there is a remake of it coming. I'd wait for that. But it's BHH TG, PA which is still ongoing, SWP, and then RWP. TLG is TG part 2 which takes place 15 years after TG. And DD is a side project. But still set within the BHU, as I call it.

So yeah, they are in fact interconnected.

 

[Sunsett]

Eles estão interligados em termos do universo.
Citação direta de Seath que está nos comentários de outros jogos:



Então sim, eles estão de fato interconectados.

Thank you very much :