discussion Abandoned VN Ren'Py DAZ SUCH A SHARP PAIN [V0.11.7R] [KETZAL]

[dickness all around]

I've already said it several times to the people who support me, but given the small message (which leaves me indifferent but still), I'll explain what it's like to make an AVN.

1/ Writing. You have to write the whole scene - the dialogue, the camera movements, the lighting, the choices and variables.
2/ Creating the scene in DAZ. Placement, camera, lighting and tests.
3/ Animations. Even if I avoid doing a lot of them, because they take a lot of time for a few seconds. 10 hours for a 100 frame animation (2.2 seconds of anim).
4/ Rendering. A render with light and DOF (camera effects). It takes between 15 minutes and 1 hour for a render.
5/ Post production. Each render goes through a denoiser filter. Each render is then edited in Photoshop to remove errors and improve the lighting.

Writing alone can take one or two months. So, releasing an update can take between 3 and 6 months.

I know it's a long time, and I'd love to go faster.

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how can the writing take so long? unless you mean while rendering. making the visual part of the game should take the longest, writing? that's just dialogue/story, you should have it done in 20 minutes since you already have most of the game's story written somewhere.

please correct me if I'm wrong, it just sounded weird.

 

[Dustination]

Can someone describe the last scene in version 0.8R? I need to figure out if the game is working right. For me, it's the scene where the MC is in the clothing shop with that woman. But I thought that was 0.72R?

 

[tyrannicpuppy]

how can the writing take so long? unless you mean while rendering. making the visual part of the game should take the longest, writing? that's just dialogue/story, you should have it done in 20 minutes since you already have most of the game's story written somewhere.

please correct me if I'm wrong, it just sounded weird.

Ketzal pretty much explained it in that post. The writing is everything.

It's figuring out where the story will go next. Each and every single variable and pathway, in detail. It's figuring out what choices will be part of this update and how they spawn all new paths and variables. It's deciding exactly what visuals will be required to tell that story.

Which is pretty much full on directing in that you need to pretty much storyboard the scenes in your mind as you go to work out if something would or wouldn't work visually as you are hoping. Can you just film it from a different angle and get the preferred result? Do you need multiple angles and cameras for the scene? Do you need to create entirely new sets for what you want to tell in this segment?

Writing is a massive part of a visual story telling project. So much so that it is usually done by entire teams of writers on any somewhat big production. We just had a massive freaking strike over writing. Because every single line, set, model, movement, scenario, and outfit is something that needs to be written out well in advance of posing and rendering. Unless the dev is willing to just wing it on certain aspects when setting up each scene. And that tends to lead to either single outfit characters that just wear the same getup 24/7 in the same rooms of the same couple of locales from the same angles every single time. Which tends to feel low quality or effort pretty fast. Or leads to inconsistent behaviour and design as they just use whatever was easiest at the time of posing.

If a dev wants to be consistent and deliver high quality, writing is pretty much the most important aspect of the development cycle. Because everything else spawns from the writing.

And good writing can often make up for deficiencies elsewhere in a work. If a story is really fucking good and riveting, you can forgive flaws in a render. Because you're so eager to keep clicking through and look at more of the story that you don't stay on the flawed frame long enough to care. Fail to plan, plan to fail. Writing is the planning of the project.

My extremely too long and overly wordy two cents on the matter.

 

[dickness all around]

Ketzal pretty much explained it in that post. The writing is everything.

It's figuring out where the story will go next. Each and every single variable and pathway, in detail. It's figuring out what choices will be part of this update and how they spawn all new paths and variables. It's deciding exactly what visuals will be required to tell that story.

Which is pretty much full on directing in that you need to pretty much storyboard the scenes in your mind as you go to work out if something would or wouldn't work visually as you are hoping. Can you just film it from a different angle and get the preferred result? Do you need multiple angles and cameras for the scene? Do you need to create entirely new sets for what you want to tell in this segment?

Writing is a massive part of a visual story telling project. So much so that it is usually done by entire teams of writers on any somewhat big production. We just had a massive freaking strike over writing. Because every single line, set, model, movement, scenario, and outfit is something that needs to be written out well in advance of posing and rendering. Unless the dev is willing to just wing it on certain aspects when setting up each scene. And that tends to lead to either single outfit characters that just wear the same getup 24/7 in the same rooms of the same couple of locales from the same angles every single time. Which tends to feel low quality or effort pretty fast. Or leads to inconsistent behaviour and design as they just use whatever was easiest at the time of posing.

If a dev wants to be consistent and deliver high quality, writing is pretty much the most important aspect of the development cycle. Because everything else spawns from the writing.

And good writing can often make up for deficiencies elsewhere in a work. If a story is really fucking good and riveting, you can forgive flaws in a render. Because you're so eager to keep clicking through and look at more of the story that you don't stay on the flawed frame long enough to care. Fail to plan, plan to fail. Writing is the planning of the project.

My extremely too long and overly wordy two cents on the matter.

since everyone want incest and loli from this game, the dev could just stay on a single path. shove everything in together. you know people are gonna want to see everything anyway, someone will even make a mod in the future where you can see everything.

I often wondered why new games do this, I'm sure 99% that people won't mind. if the game was huge and paths actually mattered then ye sure. but if it takes the dev so long to update, wouldn't it make sense to work faster because he's on a single path and update only later with the other path? who wouldn't want faster quality updates? so we lose a different path who cares? we will get it anyway, just people who pay won't have to wait 3 months here and there.

 

[BadJM]

since everyone want incest and loli from this game, the dev could just stay on a single path. shove everything in together. you know people are gonna want to see everything anyway, someone will even make a mod in the future where you can see everything.

I often wondered why new games do this, I'm sure 99% that people won't mind. if the game was huge and paths actually mattered then ye sure. but if it takes the dev so long to update, wouldn't it make sense to work faster because he's on a single path and update only later with the other path? who wouldn't want faster quality updates? so we lose a different path who cares? we will get it anyway, just people who pay won't have to wait 3 months here and there.

Some of the paths require you to reject some of the girls so yeah the mod to see everything wouldn't make much sense.

 

[User_12]

since everyone want incest and loli from this game, the dev could just stay on a single path. shove everything in together. you know people are gonna want to see everything anyway, someone will even make a mod in the future where you can see everything.

I often wondered why new games do this, I'm sure 99% that people won't mind. if the game was huge and paths actually mattered then ye sure. but if it takes the dev so long to update, wouldn't it make sense to work faster because he's on a single path and update only later with the other path? who wouldn't want faster quality updates? so we lose a different path who cares? we will get it anyway, just people who pay won't have to wait 3 months here and there.

The reason is obvious. In my case, it's because I like doing it this way. I make this game for me first. I like to play this way. If people like what I create, so much the better. You have to stop believing that a game is made for everyone to enjoy. I can listen to criticism and change things that might cause problems, but first and foremost it's my game. I like to separate the paths, to be obliged to start again to look for what I may have missed. It's the way I play, so my game reflects what I like.

Talking about writing. I don't just write dialogue, I write everything. Camera movement, lighting position, character expression. Variables and choices. Consequences. Scene 5 can have different resolution depending on what you've chosen in scene 1, and vice versa. So yes, what takes the longest (in my case) is the writing.

 

[tyrannicpuppy]

since everyone want incest and loli from this game, the dev could just stay on a single path. shove everything in together. you know people are gonna want to see everything anyway, someone will even make a mod in the future where you can see everything.

I often wondered why new games do this, I'm sure 99% that people won't mind. if the game was huge and paths actually mattered then ye sure. but if it takes the dev so long to update, wouldn't it make sense to work faster because he's on a single path and update only later with the other path? who wouldn't want faster quality updates? so we lose a different path who cares? we will get it anyway, just people who pay won't have to wait 3 months here and there.

I think you missed the main point I was trying to make. The writing in a VN is literally every single facet of the game. It's not just the story. Even if you take away all choice and make a kinetic novel, the writing is still a massive portion.

For a single dev game, that dev isn't just writing the story. They are the casting director, set designer, costume designer, prop master, choreographer, acting coach, dialog coach, producer, gaffer, sound designer, lighting director, etc, etc, etc.

For any scene of 'story' that you write, you also need to write pages of other considerations. Where does this scene take place? Family home? Ok. Creating that set is a whole bunch of writing. How big is it? Where is it? What rooms does it have? Is there a pre-existing model that works? If not, you must now create one. Even if there is a model, do you need to renovate? What props need to be in a scene for it to feel believable? Ever seen a VN set in totally empty space? How satisfying was it to play?

Sure, once you have a set like that setup it can just be loaded in and reused. But how many sets does the game take place in? Often in these types of games there is the family home, the school/workplace, a coffee shop, streets between the sets. How many other human beings exist in the background of any of those shots. Their positions and actions all need to be preplanned and written out. If the dev wants the world to feel even remotely real, you need background action. It needs to feel lived in. Those are tiny things that most people don't notice unless they're missing, but that require considerable thought on the devs part when writing.

Every single pixel that is on display is something the dev has had to consider at some point. For instance, if a scene happens during a meal. The dev now needs to add in what each character is eating and drinking. This often amounts to just adding a handful of the same model to a table for the duration, but in a higher-effort production, the cast will eat the food. Meaning every new frame could require different models or changes made to each and every plate at that table.

All of that is writing. Before it ever gets to the posing stage in a 3D program. Every item in the frame has been considered in the writing before the dev even boots up a program. The writing is every single phase and facet of the planning of every single moment of the game. Not just what happens to who and when. Or who's gonna shag what. Things that aren't even visible are often required considerations as 3D software can show reflections. So now the dev needs to plan for things that aren't in frame but might be reflected in a tv or window or eyeball.

Unless the dev is winging it at every stage, writing is the single biggest time sink of their actual time. Rendering takes power and time on a practical side of things, but once the scene is posed and the dev has hit render, they aren't spending their creative time on it again until post-processing. Writing is a never-ending process of considering and preparing everything that isn't currently rendering.

It's the one step of a creative project that you never step away from. Your brain is almost never not considering some aspect of the project. And if you don't write those down when they come, you lose them so damned easily. Coz brains are arseholes like that.

No matter how small or linear a project like a VN is, writing is what makes every single moment of it work. Because winging it is simply not sustainable over a long period. You will inevitably contradict yourself, or muck something up if you try. And the only alternative to winging it... is writing. A hell of a lot of writing.

 

[Gerdi B]

@tyrannicpuppy explained the writing part really good.
TL;DR you have to write the whole script and not only the dialogues.

You can take the

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as an example.
It contains set design, character position, movement, dialog, transitions etc.
Nothing you can write down in 20 minutes.


And considering the size of the updates, the render quality and the fact that ketzal is doing the writing and rendering alone, the time between updates isn't that long.

 

[elfieeven]

how can the writing take so long? unless you mean while rendering. making the visual part of the game should take the longest, writing? that's just dialogue/story, you should have it done in 20 minutes since you already have most of the game's story written somewhere.

please correct me if I'm wrong, it just sounded weird.

You've.. never written a thing in your life have you?

Give it a try.. go write us out a decent screenplay that will make sense with 400 renders which is a very basic # for a first release.

 

[dickness all around]

You've.. never written a thing in your life have you?

Give it a try.. go write us out a decent screenplay that will make sense with 400 renders which is a very basic # for a first release.

that's the same argument diablo 3 devs made, 20 minutes later a kid commented on their youtube video with a better plot for their game XD

 

[elfieeven]

that's the same argument diablo 3 devs made, 20 minutes later a kid commented on their youtube video with a better plot for their game XD

So we're waiting.. let's see your screenplay! You had way more then 20 minutes.

 

[Sural Argonus]

that's the same argument diablo 3 devs made, 20 minutes later a kid commented on their youtube video with a better plot for their game XD

Was it just a plot, or was it a full screenplay with dialog, and scene descriptions?
There's a difference. Even professional writers can take a long time.

JK Rowling wrote the entire Harry Potter Series over 17 years.

Writers in Hollyweird can take a few weeks to months to write screenplays.
There's a difference between treatments, outlines, screenplays and novels.

You can think however you want, but to have a fully engaging story with content isn't always a quick thing to make.

 

[Lostandquiet73]

that's the same argument diablo 3 devs made, 20 minutes later a kid commented on their youtube video with a better plot for their game XD

How are you gonna compare Diablo 3, an ACTION game whose sole purpose is to let you kill the same creature but with different colors at each level over and over again with a visual novel? You are either stupid or just trying to be annoying for the sake of it. The dumbest visual novel will have a way larger and more complex plot than all the installments of Diablo combined.

 

[superpuma]

but as for blablabla... I want the new version available. LOL

 

[cenros]

but as for blablabla... I want the new version available. LOL

Well… according to how things look, I recommend you sit back and try similar games while the chicken is cooking, perhaps at the beginning of 2024.

 

[Dustination]

What is the first scene in the 0.8R update? I'm trying to figure out if I have the correct version or not. Thanks.

 

[Cassidy]

Can someone describe the last scene in version 0.8R? I need to figure out if the game is working right. For me, it's the scene where the MC is in the clothing shop with that woman. But I thought that was 0.72R?

V8.0 : No new scenes. Only technical update with gameplay rework

Thats from the changelog

 

[Dustination]

V8.0 : No new scenes. Only technical update with gameplay rework

Thats from the changelog

Yes version 8.0 not 0.8R. I assumed there was a difference between 8.0 (which I thought would be 0.8) and 0.8R. And above that it mentions new renders and scenes. I assumed that was referring to 0.8R.

 

[Gerdi B]

A = Alpha (Subscribers only)
B = Beta (Subscribers only)
R = Release (Subscribers + public)
F = Censored (but I stopped doing that)

You will seldom find any differences except for small fixes between A, B and R releases.
So content wise 0.8 == 0.8A == 0.8B == 0.8R. All versions that are released here by ketzal are public (R) releases..

If something changed between Alpha and Release, or if the version is released in parts, you will see that in the version number. Like with 0.7: 0.7.1, 0.7.2 and 0.7.3

 

[Alistairx]

I've already said it several times to the people who support me, but given the small message (which leaves me indifferent but still), I'll explain what it's like to make an AVN.

1/ Writing. You have to write the whole scene - the dialogue, the camera movements, the lighting, the choices and variables.
2/ Creating the scene in DAZ. Placement, camera, lighting and tests.
3/ Animations. Even if I avoid doing a lot of them, because they take a lot of time for a few seconds. 10 hours for a 100 frame animation (2.2 seconds of anim).
4/ Rendering. A render with light and DOF (camera effects). It takes between 15 minutes and 1 hour for a render.
5/ Post production. Each render goes through a denoiser filter. Each render is then edited in Photoshop to remove errors and improve the lighting.

Writing alone can take one or two months. So, releasing an update can take between 3 and 6 months.

I know it's a long time, and I'd love to go faster.

Gotta make sure that lesbian butthole tonguing scene has no noise. Very very important. Why no more scenes like that tho?