discussion Abandoned VN Ren'Py DAZ SUCH A SHARP PAIN [V0.11.7R] [KETZAL]

[HoboCop86]

About the additional content in the other stories. There is nothing about SSP told. Just the past of some characters, so no risk of NTR.
Concerning the warning messages, there is only one, and I added it because some people took so badly a certain scene that I was threatened very seriously. So in order not to hurt anyone, I added this message.

If those additional stories show or mention sex scenes with girls that the mc of the main game has sex with then it is in fact canon and ntr.
The only person we care about is the MC of the main game, past sexual adventures of girls in the game aren't needed or wanted.

If you made a follow up game and it would show all of the mc's harem now breaking up with him and starting a new life with a new guy that would not get the initial game the ntr tag, but it would still be canon and ruin the game just like the last of us 2 ruined the last of us 1 and the same goes for prequel stories.

You already saw that people don't want any kind of sharing/ntr after that sharing render you made, don't repeat the same mistake again

 

[marcomemmey]

I also think people taking games seriously to be unbelievably funny.

How The Fuck Is NTR Real, Just Close Your Eyes, Walk Away From The Screen Haha, we already knew Macy had sex at least two times with someone else so MC and Nicole could be born.

 

[superpuma]

there are so many acronyms, an alphabet soup... if you don't like it, delete the program and start another one, so simple to solve.

 

[Deleted member 9689]

Since I am very attentive and sensitive to the story of AVN, I wanted to add my two cents to this discussion as well.

and honestly, I feel that the story that Ketzal is presenting us - until now at least - is a good balance between comedy, drama and tragedy. That's not always a given. Take the game "Acting Lessons", through the whole game it presents itself as a lighthearted comedy only to remove the floor from under the player when things go sideways near the end (and ruins the whole game for me).
The relationship between the MC and his mother is never presented lighthearted or silly. It's erotic, sure, but it does not shy away from showing that the mother is mentally unstable and unhinged. Maybe it's because she does not know how to deal with her attraction to her own son, perhaps due to things that happened in the past. Her sister obviously is mentally better equipped to deal with all this. In short, Such a Sharp Pain never presented itself as a lighthearted escape from reality, but a dramatic story of a man dealing with trauma's from the past and desires in the future.

I play these games because I want to immerse myself into a more pleasant world, I like to play and identify as the main character of the game and I want to develop a certain intimacy and connection with the girls. That is why I play porn games as opposed to just visiting pornhub. I really dont want to see any of these:
- Love interests of the MC having sex with other guys
- Love interests of the MC talking about their past sex life/their ex boyfriend/their body count (unless in the case of them telling MC that he is their first)
- MC sharing his love interests with other guys
- watching other guys fuck girls on screen at all (voyeurism)

That being said, I also understand you that you prefer your stories lighthearted escapes, and there are definitely games for that (Being a DIK, Sisterly Lust, Man of the House, Fetish Locator). This game however decided to follow another path, one of drama and tragedy (akin to Depraved awakening, Leap of Faith (though that one is a bit too much), City of Broken dreamers), and it's very much upon the author to decide what kind of story he/she wishes to tell. of course, Such a sharp Pain is quite unique in its quality and the perversion is presents.

I never understood the obsession that everything sexual has to turn around the MC or the aversion of NTR. The fact that all female characters throw themselves at the MC and have absolutely no interest in other male characters make me roll me eyes. In silly games like "Sisterly Lust" or "Treasures of Nadia" - fine, they don't take themselves too seriously. But in a game like "Such a Sharp Pain,"- in my opinion - it kinda hurts the game. Like when the sale's clerk suddenly is also interested in you. That feels so out of place, and I believe the game would be better for it by removing such scenes. Or if for the story a female character that the MC has interest in sleeps with another man. So what? it's a drama story. I think it's pretty obvious that Ketzal is puting a lot of emphasis on the story.

 

[User_12]

Since I am very attentive and sensitive to the story of AVN, I wanted to add my two cents to this discussion as well.

and honestly, I feel that the story that Ketzal is presenting us - until now at least - is a good balance between comedy, drama and tragedy. That's not always a given. Take the game "Acting Lessons", through the whole game it presents itself as a lighthearted comedy only to remove the floor from under the player when things go sideways near the end (and ruins the whole game for me).
The relationship between the MC and his mother is never presented lighthearted or silly. It's erotic, sure, but it does not shy away from showing that the mother is mentally unstable and unhinged. Maybe it's because she does not know how to deal with her attraction to her own son, perhaps due to things that happened in the past. Her sister obviously is mentally better equipped to deal with all this. In short, Such a Sharp Pain never presented itself as a lighthearted escape from reality, but a dramatic story of a man dealing with trauma's from the past and desires in the future.


That being said, I also understand you that you prefer your stories lighthearted escapes, and there are definitely games for that (Being a DIK, Sisterly Lust, Man of the House, Fetish Locator). This game however decided to follow another path, one of drama and tragedy (akin to Depraved awakening, Leap of Faith (though that one is a bit too much), City of Broken dreamers), and it's very much upon the author to decide what kind of story he/she wishes to tell. of course, Such a sharp Pain is quite unique in its quality and the perversion is presents.

That being said, I never understood the obsession that everything sexual has to turn around the MC. The fact that all female characters throw themselves at the MC and have absolutely no interest in other male characters make me roll me eyes. In silly games like "Sisterly Lust" or "Treasures of Nadia" - fine, they don't take themselves too seriously. But in a game like "Such a Sharp Pain,"- in my opinion - it kinda hurts the game. Like when the sale's clerk suddenly is also interested in you. That feels so out of place in this game, and I believe the game would be better for it by removing such scenes.

I loved reading your opinion of my game. Thanks a lot.
For the last part, you are completely right about the fact that female characters should have a life outside the MC. It would serve my story much better, but things being what they are, the story will remain focused on the MC.
Thanks again. A pleasure to read you.

 

[Tiur]

As a counterpoint, while girls may have lives outside the MC, players who immerse themselves in the MC tend very strongly to not want to see or hear about those lives, or see scenes of those LIs fucking other men.

On another note, what I've found out about Macy through this thread and her standalone game has caused me to drop support and write the game off.

I play AVNs to enjoy the story and feel good. Being able to save/rescue girls who start out in terrible situations is a big part of that, when those kinds of girls are present in the story. Killing an LI off in-game is an absolute turn-off and an immediate drop of the game for me once I find out that it happens and is not reversible. There's enough tragedy in the world without the bait and switch of being encouraged to care about a person, and then permanently removing that person from ever being able to be rescued or saved. Out of respect for ketzal from the first few releases of SSP which I did enjoy, I'll stop there.

 

[WhiteVanDaycare]

Ultimately it is @ketzal's game, it should tell the story they want to.
-Opinions are like @$$holes, everyone has one and they generally stink.

 

[Tiur]

Ultimately it is @ketzal's game, it should tell the story they want to.

Absolutely true. But that doesn't entitle him to anyone's support, or protect him from criticism. It also doesn't mean I can't be disappointed at what I see as a ton of wasted potential, given the phenomenally good writing and rendering quality present in the game from the very first release.

If he ever writes a game that doesn't kill off an LI and that does have happy endings for girls the MC can love and/or rescue/save, I'll be happy to support again. This game just isn't that.

 

[User_12]

Absolutely true. But that doesn't entitle him to anyone's support, or protect him from criticism. It also doesn't mean I can't be disappointed at what I see as a ton of wasted potential, given the phenomenally good writing and rendering quality present in the game from the very first release.

If he ever writes a game that doesn't kill off an LI and that does have happy endings for girls the MC can love and/or rescue/save, I'll be happy to support again. This game just isn't that.

I understand your opinion and I respect it a lot.
Thank you for having supported me, and I'm really sorry that it doesn't suit you anymore.
But maybe in the future. Thanks again.

 

[Nastastic]

Absolutely true. But that doesn't entitle him to anyone's support, or protect him from criticism. It also doesn't mean I can't be disappointed at what I see as a ton of wasted potential, given the phenomenally good writing and rendering quality present in the game from the very first release.

If he ever writes a game that doesn't kill off an LI and that does have happy endings for girls the MC can love and/or rescue/save, I'll be happy to support again. This game just isn't that.

A point of order here: Macy is fucking D-E-A-D by the time the game starts. This is not an "Acting Lessons" burn down the house situation - DPC killed off an active, current LI that was (likely, depending on player choices) about to enter into a throuple with the MC and her best friend (which not only got rid of a lovely lady but did so BEFORE WE GOT TO SEE THE THREESOME EVEN ONCE ). Macy in this game exists only in the past. She was never, ever going to be an LI in the game proper. You fucked her in the past as a kid, in scenes that exist only to service lovers of straight shota and/or M/s stuff. That's it. Even her suicide is something that happened years ago, not something that happened during the "present" timeline of the game.

TL;DR Macy is not an LI. Never was, never will be. This game is about lolis, teens and MILFs (aka adult women who are around the MC's age) and a little bit of shota stuff in flashbacks. No GILFs here and I doubt ketzal even likes them.

 

[Moss]

Since I am very attentive and sensitive to the story of AVN, I wanted to add my two cents to this discussion as well.

and honestly, I feel that the story that Ketzal is presenting us - until now at least - is a good balance between comedy, drama and tragedy. That's not always a given. Take the game "Acting Lessons", through the whole game it presents itself as a lighthearted comedy only to remove the floor from under the player when things go sideways near the end (and ruins the whole game for me).
The relationship between the MC and his mother is never presented lighthearted or silly. It's erotic, sure, but it does not shy away from showing that the mother is mentally unstable and unhinged. Maybe it's because she does not know how to deal with her attraction to her own son, perhaps due to things that happened in the past. Her sister obviously is mentally better equipped to deal with all this. In short, Such a Sharp Pain never presented itself as a lighthearted escape from reality, but a dramatic story of a man dealing with trauma's from the past and desires in the future.


That being said, I also understand you that you prefer your stories lighthearted escapes, and there are definitely games for that (Being a DIK, Sisterly Lust, Man of the House, Fetish Locator). This game however decided to follow another path, one of drama and tragedy (akin to Depraved awakening, Leap of Faith (though that one is a bit too much), City of Broken dreamers), and it's very much upon the author to decide what kind of story he/she wishes to tell. of course, Such a sharp Pain is quite unique in its quality and the perversion is presents.

I never understood the obsession that everything sexual has to turn around the MC or the aversion of NTR. The fact that all female characters throw themselves at the MC and have absolutely no interest in other male characters make me roll me eyes. In silly games like "Sisterly Lust" or "Treasures of Nadia" - fine, they don't take themselves too seriously. But in a game like "Such a Sharp Pain,"- in my opinion - it kinda hurts the game. Like when the sale's clerk suddenly is also interested in you. That feels so out of place, and I believe the game would be better for it by removing such scenes. Or if for the story a female character that the MC has interest in sleeps with another man. So what? it's a drama story. I think it's pretty obvious that Ketzal is puting a lot of emphasis on the story.

I agree with you about the sales girl. Would have been more interesting if she peeked in at the MC and his daughter and was intrigued by the incestual relationshipo. Then built on that. But, hey, it's still a cool game.

 

[Moss]

A point of order here: Macy is fucking D-E-A-D by the time the game starts. This is not an "Acting Lessons" burn down the house situation - DPC killed off an active, current LI that was (likely, depending on player choices) about to enter into a throuple with the MC and her best friend (which not only got rid of a lovely lady but did so BEFORE WE GOT TO SEE THE THREESOME EVEN ONCE ). Macy in this game exists only in the past. She was never, ever going to be an LI in the game proper. You fucked her in the past as a kid, in scenes that exist only to service lovers of straight shota and/or M/s stuff. That's it. Even her suicide is something that happened years ago, not something that happened during the "present" timeline of the game.

TL;DR Macy is not an LI. Never was, never will be. This game is about lolis, teens and MILFs (aka adult women who are around the MC's age) and a little bit of shota stuff in flashbacks. No GILFs here and I doubt ketzal even likes them.

Thanks. i did not realize that. (It would help if i actually read the dialog instead of just fastforwarding to the sexy bits.)

 

[Deleted member 9689]

I loved reading your opinion of my game. Thanks a lot.
For the last part, you are completely right about the fact that female characters should have a life outside the MC. It would serve my story much better, but things being what they are, the story will remain focused on the MC.
Thanks again. A pleasure to read you.

Thank you for the compliments, it was a pleasure to write (and even a bigger pleasure to play your game). And I also understand that - in the end - it is nice if you can make some good money with it, and that might mean tweaking and adjusting your story so that it conforms with what most fans would like to see in their game. For me - in the end - the heart of the story is still there and while weird, I'm not so much bothered by overly MC-centric plotlines.

A point of order here: Macy is fucking D-E-A-D by the time the game starts. This is not an "Acting Lessons" burn down the house situation - DPC killed off an active, current LI that was (likely, depending on player choices) about to enter into a throuple with the MC and her best friend (which not only got rid of a lovely lady but did so BEFORE WE GOT TO SEE THE THREESOME EVEN ONCE ). Macy in this game exists only in the past. She was never, ever going to be an LI in the game proper. You fucked her in the past as a kid, in scenes that exist only to service lovers of straight shota and/or M/s stuff. That's it. Even her suicide is something that happened years ago, not something that happened during the "present" timeline of the game.

TL;DR Macy is not an LI. Never was, never will be. This game is about lolis, teens and MILFs (aka adult women who are around the MC's age) and a little bit of shota stuff in flashbacks. No GILFs here and I doubt ketzal even likes them.

You know, I wasn't even bothered that the writer of aciting lessons killed off a love interest. I had the impression from that ending, that it was the author's idea all along to give the player that horrid dilemma. What bothers me is that it came out of nowhere. there is no build-up, there is hardly any drama - let alone tragedy - in this game. it'd be akin to watching the Big Bang Theory, and Penny gets killed in a driving accident. As a writer you create expectations, a context in which your story develops. if you then sin against this reality, it isn't sad, it's just weird. a game like Leap of Faith - in that game I'd expect something like that. The best games I feel that are perfectly self-aware are: "Being a DIK" and "City of Broken Dreamers" (and of course Such a Sharp Pain)

 

[GivLoli]

Since I am very attentive and sensitive to the story of AVN, I wanted to add my two cents to this discussion as well.

and honestly, I feel that the story that Ketzal is presenting us - until now at least - is a good balance between comedy, drama and tragedy. That's not always a given. Take the game "Acting Lessons", through the whole game it presents itself as a lighthearted comedy only to remove the floor from under the player when things go sideways near the end (and ruins the whole game for me).
The relationship between the MC and his mother is never presented lighthearted or silly. It's erotic, sure, but it does not shy away from showing that the mother is mentally unstable and unhinged. Maybe it's because she does not know how to deal with her attraction to her own son, perhaps due to things that happened in the past. Her sister obviously is mentally better equipped to deal with all this. In short, Such a Sharp Pain never presented itself as a lighthearted escape from reality, but a dramatic story of a man dealing with trauma's from the past and desires in the future.


That being said, I also understand you that you prefer your stories lighthearted escapes, and there are definitely games for that (Being a DIK, Sisterly Lust, Man of the House, Fetish Locator). This game however decided to follow another path, one of drama and tragedy (akin to Depraved awakening, Leap of Faith (though that one is a bit too much), City of Broken dreamers), and it's very much upon the author to decide what kind of story he/she wishes to tell. of course, Such a sharp Pain is quite unique in its quality and the perversion is presents.

I never understood the obsession that everything sexual has to turn around the MC or the aversion of NTR. The fact that all female characters throw themselves at the MC and have absolutely no interest in other male characters make me roll me eyes. In silly games like "Sisterly Lust" or "Treasures of Nadia" - fine, they don't take themselves too seriously. But in a game like "Such a Sharp Pain,"- in my opinion - it kinda hurts the game. Like when the sale's clerk suddenly is also interested in you. That feels so out of place, and I believe the game would be better for it by removing such scenes. Or if for the story a female character that the MC has interest in sleeps with another man. So what? it's a drama story. I think it's pretty obvious that Ketzal is puting a lot of emphasis on the story.

Hi, I appreciate you replying and putting in more than the minimum effort and writing out more than some "lol bro its just a game who cares" kinda garbage reply. Thanks for that. That said there seem to be some misunderstandings or wrongful assumptions in your post (in response to my earlier post).
First I never said that I oppose a more serious and dramatic setting. I am not so much opposed to drama, baggage or death than I am to everything that broadly falls under the term of NTR. So while I am not really into a super sad background story where it shows the mom suffering and dying or anything on that caliber, I am more worried that this game will go the way of Power Vacuum and have a bunch of - and excuse my french here - cuckshit side stories under the excuse that they are not part of the main story so its fine and not NTR. Now I dont know what exactly the plans for future side stories are, if its just drama without sexual content, but if there is sexual content planned for a timeline where MC was not yet born then yes, this will go very quickly into NTR territory for me and that would be a reason to no longer enjoy the game for me.

The second wrong assumption is that I want every single girl to throw herself at the MC including any girl who is a clerk in a story and talks to MC for 10 seconds and also have no personality or life outside of him. WVM is a good example of a game that does just that and I found it suffocating. I am completely fine with background girls not being interested in MC or going out with other guys (as long as I dont have to watch them fuck on-screen). I dont care. I just dont want to watch a girl I have developed some feelings for (and yes I do develop some feelings for these virtual girls) fuck another guy. Or talk about past sexual experiences with them. That includes in side stories that play in the past.

I think killing off characters is ok as long as it happens in the past. No Acting Lessons kinda stuff where you have the player get intimate with a girl for the entire game and then you have to choose one of them to die. I really like how the game Radiant handled drama, there was a lot of terrible stuff that happened in the past and there were a lot of hurt feelings, including a death, but then MC got to fix and improve things once the game starts. I think this is generally a good way to have drama and character depth in your game without going so far overboard that it alienates too many people.

Again, ultimately its Ketzal's decision to make and I will respect whichever way he takes his game. But I think a lot of potential fans hold similar views, so if you want your game to make as many people happy as possible you should avoid certain themes like ntr-adjacent stuff or doing an Acting Lessons with your characters late in the game.

I know you went through a lot of shit to make this game, Ketzal, due to the controversial nature of the game. I wish you all the best. The loli content is beautiful, possibly the best across all games I have ever played.

 

[superpuma]

'The loli content is beautiful, possibly the best in any game I've ever played.'
I COMPLETELY AGREE, now after all this talk... how much will the proof update be? lol Looking forward to it.

 

[Myuhinny]

The only milf I was interested in was Macy the other 2 I have no interest in what so ever and more might be added to that list as I meet them. If there was an option I would only go after all of the other girls in the game instead.

 

[Deleted member 9689]

Hi, I appreciate you replying and putting in more than the minimum effort and writing out more than some "lol bro its just a game who cares" kinda garbage reply. Thanks for that. That said there seem to be some misunderstandings or wrongful assumptions in your post (in response to my earlier post).

your follow-up does cllarify a lot, you give a lot of nuance to the whole issue of NTR and I apologise then perhaps that I assumed to freely. However, I'm still a bit confused. I hope it's ok if I ask you a bit more about your view.

Let me start that I follow your attitude towards character in these games: that you empathise with them and even develop feelings. Why else would anyone play a visual novel, if not to get drawn in the story, feel for the characters and enjoy the erotic situations. That being said, I'm not sure I understand your view on NTR. in your first point you say that :

if there is sexual content planned for a timeline where MC was not yet born then yes, this will go very quickly into NTR territory for me and that would be a reason to no longer enjoy the game for me.

but then in your 2nd point you state that

I am completely fine with background girls not being interested in MC or going out with other guys (as long as I dont have to watch them fuck on-screen). I dont care

I mean, if the only issue you have is if male characters of the story have sex on the screen then well... I guess a story could work with that. However, then I don't understand your first point where there is sexual content planned before the MC was born. You mean to say that if there is sexual content involving some guy other than the MC - before he's born - and that sexual content is shown on screen, that would be a serious turn off for you? However, if that sexual content was implied but not shown (it has to be implied either way, because the MC is born), you'd be ok with it? The reason I ask specifically is that if a general NTR request would be that there is not even an implied sexual content between any other guy other than the MC - it would seriously handicap any author.

Personally, on screen, off screen, I really don't mind if there is another guy involved. However, I've read about players who cannot even deal with the mention or the hint of another guy somewhere in the story that is having sex.

I think killing off characters is ok as long as it happens in the past. No Acting Lessons kinda stuff where you have the player get intimate with a girl for the entire game and then you have to choose one of them to die. I really like how the game Radiant handled drama, there was a lot of terrible stuff that happened in the past and there were a lot of hurt feelings, including a death, but then MC got to fix and improve things once the game starts.

I don't know Radiant, I might look it up - do you advise it? I can appreciate drama before, during or even in the epilogue, as long as it makes sense and is well written. My problem with Acting Lessons is not the drama per se, just that it's a pretty badly written Visual Novel. However, drama or no drama, I agree with you: I do really enjoy the kind of drama were the MC acts as the white in shining armour (as long as it isn't too much on the nose - like Leap of Faith). That beind said, looking at "Such a Sharp Pain", I'm not so sure the MC is necessarily the hero of the story. I mean, we like what he does because of questionable preferences - but my feeling is that Ketzal is not planning to paint the MC as a hero that is saving these girls (but I might be wrong).

 

[ramvivat]

I also think people taking games seriously to be unbelievably funny.

all games teach something. children, playing, comprehend the world, even socialize, playing, and therefore games are serious.

for example, THIS VN - carries a useful lesson that you can not joke with incest, because incest is dangerous not only from the point of view of the birth of inferior offspring, but also from a psychological point of view.
if you do not know how to talk to these two strange tenants who live in a house called "incest", it is better not to approach this house without preparation, because it can be dangerous.

By the way, I think that calling VN games is not entirely correct.
VN is NOT a game.

VN are e-books with an element of interactivity, but not games.
VN is e-books. and books teach. and teaching, entertaining.
games - entertaining teach. but more entertain than teach.
that is their difference,
but what is the similarity - they both teach and entertain.
a rough analogy is a TV color balance control. turn the knob to the right - the picture becomes more yellow but the amount of green decreases. twist to the left - the amount of green increases but yellow decreases.

 

[ramvivat]

'The loli content is beautiful, possibly the best in any game I've ever played.'
I COMPLETELY AGREE, now after all this talk... how much will the proof update be? lol Looking forward to it.

in fact - yes, given that the no less interesting project "oh, daddy" seems, alas, abandoned, judging by the tag on F95.

 

[Moss]

all games teach something. children, playing, comprehend the world, even socialize, playing, and therefore games are serious.

for example, THIS VN - carries a useful lesson that you can not joke with incest, because incest is dangerous not only from the point of view of the birth of inferior offspring, but also from a psychological point of view.
if you do not know how to talk to these two strange tenants who live in a house called "incest", it is better not to approach this house without preparation, because it can be dangerous.

By the way, I think that calling VN games is not entirely correct.
VN is NOT a game.

VN are e-books with an element of interactivity, but not games.
VN is e-books. and books teach. and teaching, entertaining.
games - entertaining teach. but more entertain than teach.
that is their difference,
but what is the similarity - they both teach and entertain.
a rough analogy is a TV color balance control. turn the knob to the right - the picture becomes more yellow but the amount of green decreases. twist to the left - the amount of green increases but yellow decreases.

We need less talk, more rendering.