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Complete VN AI Ren'Py Devoid [v1.1] [Cutielabs]

1.00 star(s) 1 review
Images were generated with AI tools instead of a typical rendering application.
Thread owner
A review with some perspective, some anger, and some hopefully constructive criticism.

I don't think I need to reiterate what everyone's said about the minigames, but I do need to summarize the comments to support mine. The game is frustrating, bewildering with no context, no clues, no mercy, repetitive, and thus ultimately rage quiting inducing. Except for a smaller percent who seem to like them. If this is the developers desired response, to engender hatred and get the majority to ignore/block their game, a niche game for an already niche genre... That's cool. The dev should probably warn people IN THE GAME, in the beginning, with a non-skippable question of acceptance, that this is a game of frustrating puzzles, designed to make you feel negative emotions towards the game as part of the narrative experience... That would help the negative feedback and still allow for the targetted audience to find and give it a try. This is an _insanely_ common sense issue in game development across the board... The game, and game loop, need to be _fun_ for the targetted audience, while making sure the target audience are the ones seeing and reviewing it.

So... constructive criticism #1: Put warnings, everywhere, that this game is NOT for the casual spank bank, that this game is meant for the feelings, is dark, and is designed to invoke those things in the gamer's mind.

Timing. Timed anything, but timing. Why put a picture on the screen you want people to see, in the narrative and spoil it with a minigame? Once I realized there were timed aspects, I stopped looking at the visuals if the timer popped up _immediately_ since that's the only way to proceed. this is a VISUAL novel and pictures speak a 1000 words... and if I'm not looking at your picture because I'm trapped into a minigame immediately, or without a pause to consume at the end... you're DOING IT WRONG. Sorry for the strong language, but this is a VISUAL NOVEL format, not a creepypasta, and not a horror flick, its the combination of the two. And lewd. Cause ultimately, that's what folks are here for.

Constructive criticism #2: Keep your audience's focus on the right thing, at the right time, with time to be individual about the advancement... want a timed puzzle to up the edgy frustration? Do that, but make the pay-off worth it, or put the picture up as a step, then let the player launch into the minigame.

Clever-puzzles but blind-stupid. This is a hard one to explain, unless you already understand it, but its also VITAL that any narrative author must understand... film, book, poem, game... you have to understand that just cause you think something is obvious, intuitive, simple, easy, common sense... doesn't mean everyone will think the same way you do. This is CRUCIAL for any narrative device designed to keep the user under suspense. Fuck, I'm gonna date myself on this but... back in the old days, when there wasn't an internet, we had narrative games that had puzzles too... Zork comes to mind. There was one puzzle that I could NOT figure out... I even wrote the game dev (snail mail... they responded with some hints even)... and even with his hints, I never got the puzzle figured out by myself. I eventually had to buy a book of walkthroughs "yes, that long ago" only to find out that the answer was insanely simple if you thought like the dev and obviously been thinking... but without any context and no clues... I would _never_ have figured it out....

Constructive criticism #3: You have to assume your audience does NOT think like you, does NOT get how clever you are, or how clever the puzzle/pun/trick/etc is... They're not stupid, they just aren't in your headspace when you thought up the puzzle... The weren't looking at the periodic table and going "I could encode a message with elements!" so don't understand the string of numbers is supposed to map to the elements to spell out the secret password... They just got home from a job, PTA, etc and are trying to relax by playing a game... So what does that entail... up to you. There are literally gamedev courses about this topic, and "release valves" or "clue loops" and "shifting mind spaces" but... generally... you've had the feedback about the game, and its very clear that the people playing the game, are not thinking like you did when designing/writing it out. Get them there like whodunnit's and suspenseful thrillers/drama's do in movies and books. Or find other ways. See what works about various "puzzler" games in the wild... and the indy's that flopped. An example... each puzzle success has a pay-off... strip poker games come to mind as a brutal example.

Narrative devices and writing courses. Look into them. Look into things like Catharsis in theatrical terms, where an some cases an audience has had their negative emotions so saturated that they start laughing at the drama... It's why Shakespeare inbeds humor into all of his dramas, and dramatic story lines in all of his comedy... Humans do weird things when they hit emotional limits. Understand that things like stressors are multiplicative, while tension is best done in waves and slow builds. There was no break in the tension, no pause or relief valve, and you kept ratcheting it up, timed minigames, missed pictures, confusing game play, hidden story, characters under extreme stress... and the player has no break, no relief valve, no way to untighten the shoulders... But you know the universal relief valve with media is? Close the book, storm out of the theater, rage quit the video game... and then go bitch and moan about it on the internet. Which is reinforced feel-good (and thus tension breaking) when other's chime in "yeah, yeah I rage quit too!"

Constructive criticism #4: You're almost certainly a freetime dev, doing this more out of passion and idea, than for money or as a "job." And in a genre that is... yeah. So a lot of slack is going to be given to any dev... But if you're going to go off the expected, you're going to get more push-back... example, if you put NTR in a game, you guarantee extreme reactions from the vast majority of the fanbase. At the same time, if you're going to go off the well beaten (all pun intended) path... you're going to need to understand the narrative process and how authors have through-out time, made their content work. An example of one way I think, and this is strictly my opinion, take it or leave it as just that... but you started out in a confusing state, and one that was narratively framed as sympathetic to the abused girl, and so each additional abuse, each additional frustrating puzzle, just adds onto the building tension.... but if you'd started the game off with the brat being her bratty self, in a bright, vibrant setting, clearly being an abusive little shit... THEN go to the dark room and dark-maze, you start the player off mixed on their feelings, going from "fuck this brat" to "huh... is she getting her cum-uppance" to "woah... whats going on?" and its a gradual slow-motion rug-pull. Which is different from quick little music quip that's 4th wall breaking so the audience thinks its the "author's word" not who the character is, then straight to darkness, clearly abducted and abused little girl who is confused, lonely, etc... and the only thing the audience can feel is for her plight, etc... Point is... you're intentionally choosing the hardcore mode (all pun intended) of being an author, but you need to know and understand the game well before you're going to be successful.... assuming people liking and wanting to play your game is what you're after.


---------------------------

If you get this far, well done, congrats. I _deliberately_ structured this review to be tension building without comedic break. No smilies to break tension, no jokes, puns, soothing anecdotes, or otherwise things that break the constant,. drilling, tension. If only I could have added a timer on, that deleted the post to you and only you, when you first started reading it. Just more, and more negativity, no break, no relenting, no interspaced praise or acknoledging you done good at all. I did this for effect, hopefully, it holds a mirror up.

But I took time, and effort writing this up, and in the style I chose... why?

I see a lot of potential... you had me hooked into the story right up until I rage quit the game and swore I'd delete it. I like _good_ dark games, ones where things are mixed... where boundaries are grey all around, and you can accept bad shit happening for a potential greater good or redemption... Not sure, sorry didn't play through, but the scene with the bananna and milk, REALLY hit me strong as her hallucinating "bad things" into "good things" so she didn't realize she was sucking dick and being creamfaced... that she was that broken, a 5 lights, not 4 lights, breakdown. (If you WERE aiming for that kind of thing, well fucking done) You've got clear, raw talent, and I suspect if you stayed "in lane" (fuck staying in lane... but there are advantages...) you'd have a successful visual novel going on. But if you're going to go off on this path very much less travelled... do yourself a favor and consider what I said.

And no matter what I've said, no matter how you take it, know and understand that I salute you, I applaud you, and I admire you, for simply having the guts and the chutzpah to do the work you've already done. Make no bones about it, just doing what you've done should be a mark of pride... those of us who critize... have almost certainly never done... So stand tall, be proud of the work you've done, just never so proud that you think it can't be made better.

Edit- Thought about it... ignore any criticism from anyone who bitches about the AI art... first, its really well done, world class well done. second.... ffs... I'm old enough to remember ASCII porn and Laura Crofts massive triangles being fapbait... I can generate AI art... but making it good enough that you can tell a coherent story with images close enough that continuity stays? That's fucking amazing talent.

Edit 2, electric boogaloo- Before anyone points me to the mods... 1. didn't know they existed b4 I played the game, and rage quit it, 2. I don't believe mods should be necessary, and 3. if I need a mod to "fix" the dev's narrative... that speaks VOLUMES about things...
Oh boy. That was good. That was actually good feedback. I read everything, but allow me to respond in the order you wrote things.

1.- Sadly, I didn't consider warning players about the confusing, obscure and puzzley nature of the game; only about the abuse themes. I thought adding "puzzle"/"point-and-click" tags would be enough, and it probably would have been, if I hadn't accidentally made the mini-games so infuriating. I also thought that going: "The following game is meant to put you in the shoes of Mary, making you feel confused and lost, wandering the depths of a dark unknown place..." would have been a little chessy and unnecesary, but maybe I could have phrased that in some way.
2.- I actually thought of the timing issue. During the untying mini-game, if you hover over the image, the timer is paused so you can stop and look at the image. I didn't want to break the immersion with a textual tip, but I guess that means players can only figure that out by chance. The "pay-off" was simply another image, can't tell if better, or worse, or worth it; it's not as simple as strip-poker, but I guess I could have figured out something more interesting.
3.- I totally get what you mean. The mini-games looked kind of basic in my head, but I didn't stop to think if people probably never played a point-and-click before, or didn't have the patience to investigate how to get past a section, and it was totally wrong to block progress until you won a skill-based mini-game that gets increasingly hard like 8 times. In my defense...! I posted this to a different forum, hoping to get some feedback and maybe fix any confusing parts. Then 2 or 3 days later people were reposting the game to a bunch of different sites without warning. I was lucky someone pointed me to this forum or I wouldn't even know it existed, and all of this feedback would have gone unnoticed (I did not post the game here, I just claimed ownership). But yeah, I'm guilty. I had the feeling it would be confusing, posted it anyway, and didn't expect it would get this far. Still a learning experience. It's very likely I won't add mini-games to any future works, but if I do, I'll totally read up on how to make something that's actually fun.
4.- I didn't take any writing courses, but I kind of get the idea. I personally used the bright, colorful scenes as a break in the tension, so players could just read a fragment of Mary's backstory without having to worry about feeling lost or confused for a little while. I even tried to make the bright sections somewhat funny, at least compared to the dark sections. I initially planned both sections and wasn't sure on how to tie them together. The most obvious way would be a whole 1st act with the bright section to read up on Mary's backstory, and then a 2nd act with all of the dark sections back-to-back. That sounded like a BAD idea. Making the player sit through a lot of reading where nothing happens, and then a series of puzzles with no breaks in between. The other way would be as it is, but starting with a bright section, so at least they have an idea of what's going on. But I decided to start with a dark section, to make it more interesting/suspenseful. Hmm. Maybe the whole concept is dumb! idk.
I should totally learn more about writing before... writing a story.

Unfortunately, I didn't feel the tension in your feedback, because I was pretty sure it was gonna be about all of the things I did wrong. I didn't expect you to go easy on me, or crack a joke, if you were expecting me to take you seriously. And I get it, the timer sucked. The timer was there to add a sense of tension, the feeling of having to untie yourself quickly. Really. All I could think was "Looks good enough. If it's too hard, the players will tell me, and I'll fix it". And I did. Not without gaining the hate from a bunch of people I didn't even expect to play my game. Lesson learned.

Regarding the writing: There's only one thing that isn't meant to be taken literally, and it's the whole dark section. It's supposed to be an exaggeration of Mary's feelings, but, it was made ambiguous enough so it could also be interpreted as something that is really happening.
I'm used to the hate because of AI, but it's usually a 50/50, so if there's at least some people that will like what I do, I'll do it.
I want to make better games, and write better stories, so long and detailed feedback like this is gold. Thank you very much.
 
Minigame cutted to only one click per event.
You can't be caught in Chapter 4.
Put ch_3.rpy and navigation_5.rpy inside Devoid-1.0-pc\game

In Chapter 4, when roaming in the house, go to left, then up, click on machine to the right choose TURN ON, wait 2-3 seconds, press again and choose NOW.

For some scenes, just wait untill timer end (Don't click)

By the way :D
You need to click 980 times in every scene perfectly without EVEN 1 mistake to see all scenes :D
What a fucking bullshit
looks like this is broken with the 1.1 version
 
Oh boy. That was good. That was actually good feedback. I read everything, but allow me to respond in the order you wrote things.

1.- Sadly, I didn't consider warning players about the confusing, obscure and puzzley nature of the game; only about the abuse themes. I thought adding "puzzle"/"point-and-click" tags would be enough, and it probably would have been, if I hadn't accidentally made the mini-games so infuriating. I also thought that going: "The following game is meant to put you in the shoes of Mary, making you feel confused and lost, wandering the depths of a dark unknown place..." would have been a little chessy and unnecesary, but maybe I could have phrased that in some way.
2.- I actually thought of the timing issue. During the untying mini-game, if you hover over the image, the timer is paused so you can stop and look at the image. I didn't want to break the immersion with a textual tip, but I guess that means players can only figure that out by chance. The "pay-off" was simply another image, can't tell if better, or worse, or worth it; it's not as simple as strip-poker, but I guess I could have figured out something more interesting.
3.- I totally get what you mean. The mini-games looked kind of basic in my head, but I didn't stop to think if people probably never played a point-and-click before, or didn't have the patience to investigate how to get past a section, and it was totally wrong to block progress until you won a skill-based mini-game that gets increasingly hard like 8 times. In my defense...! I posted this to a different forum, hoping to get some feedback and maybe fix any confusing parts. Then 2 or 3 days later people were reposting the game to a bunch of different sites without warning. I was lucky someone pointed me to this forum or I wouldn't even know it existed, and all of this feedback would have gone unnoticed (I did not post the game here, I just claimed ownership). But yeah, I'm guilty. I had the feeling it would be confusing, posted it anyway, and didn't expect it would get this far. Still a learning experience. It's very likely I won't add mini-games to any future works, but if I do, I'll totally read up on how to make something that's actually fun.
4.- I didn't take any writing courses, but I kind of get the idea. I personally used the bright, colorful scenes as a break in the tension, so players could just read a fragment of Mary's backstory without having to worry about feeling lost or confused for a little while. I even tried to make the bright sections somewhat funny, at least compared to the dark sections. I initially planned both sections and wasn't sure on how to tie them together. The most obvious way would be a whole 1st act with the bright section to read up on Mary's backstory, and then a 2nd act with all of the dark sections back-to-back. That sounded like a BAD idea. Making the player sit through a lot of reading where nothing happens, and then a series of puzzles with no breaks in between. The other way would be as it is, but starting with a bright section, so at least they have an idea of what's going on. But I decided to start with a dark section, to make it more interesting/suspenseful. Hmm. Maybe the whole concept is dumb! idk.
I should totally learn more about writing before... writing a story.

Unfortunately, I didn't feel the tension in your feedback, because I was pretty sure it was gonna be about all of the things I did wrong. I didn't expect you to go easy on me, or crack a joke, if you were expecting me to take you seriously. And I get it, the timer sucked. The timer was there to add a sense of tension, the feeling of having to untie yourself quickly. Really. All I could think was "Looks good enough. If it's too hard, the players will tell me, and I'll fix it". And I did. Not without gaining the hate from a bunch of people I didn't even expect to play my game. Lesson learned.

Regarding the writing: There's only one thing that isn't meant to be taken literally, and it's the whole dark section. It's supposed to be an exaggeration of Mary's feelings, but, it was made ambiguous enough so it could also be interpreted as something that is really happening.
I'm used to the hate because of AI, but it's usually a 50/50, so if there's at least some people that will like what I do, I'll do it.
I want to make better games, and write better stories, so long and detailed feedback like this is gold. Thank you very much.
I took a not insignificant amount of time to respond, without knowing if you'd see or how you'd take it. Which is why I'm glad to hear you took it the way I hoped you would.

1. Tags are good, but aren't detailed, and people are going to assume the normal meaning for them, not what you wanted to do. Thus the suggestion of a warning. I mean... there's the "dark" tag, and your game is right in line with my expectations... then there's this one VN I played years ago where you're... delusional, and you're bff is this loli who keeps urging you to do more and more depraved things in your dreams, and then at the end you figure out she's really a demon, and you realize you DID all those things to actual people... that's dark tagged too, but... that was to dark for me.

2. Had no idea that hovering paused the mini-game, or that the timer apparently increases every time you fail? Someone in the thread said that about the timer... I don't know, because I hyper-focused on putting everything out of mind except "beat the mini-game." There was no hint, that I saw or was prepared for, that I should... not sweat it? As far as I knew, if I failed to many times, or even once, I would get a "bad ending" like dumping the sandwich in the hole (again, from someone in the thread... I did it, but quit before it became a thing). So as you progress on your game, consider people like me, who are going to focus on the game cause... SURPRISE TIMER MECHANIC!@!!! and I was raised on stupid game tricks of "pop up button to press out of the blue, you have .1 microseconds to hit it or you die"... fucking Dragon's Lair... and like 1/2 the PS/2 games out there that I ever played. Anyway, I think you've got an idea on that issue.

3. Funny... I grew up on point and click, and once I realized there was stuff in the game that I could interact with, I mentally transported to my old Sierra game mode, like King's Quest, and Leisure Suit Larry, and started doing mouse sweeps on each screen. And found a bunch of stuff cause of it. Buuuuut.... those games are old... people don't play like that much anymore. They expect interactables to be in their face, outlined, flashing, and with homing noises to let you konw you're getting close... like "hold ctrl to see items on the floor" Diablo style... or they're easter eggs. and those almost always have hints or cheats to help you find them these days... not like the invisible dot in Adventure, or Cow level Diablo. With that kind of old-school choice, you again are in your head, but not in the heads of the gamers playing your game.

3b. THANK YOU for posting the game. For creating the game. I do mean that, 100%.
3c. First game, and you did good. No one is perfect immediately, you have to practice a skill to get good. I wish I could internalize that SO MUCH... I might have my own game. But here's where I believe you're going to be one of the great ones... You took feedback and criticism, and accepted it in the spirit it was delivered, and are thinking it over. I'm definitely glad you saw this forum and post, not for me, but for you. I... obviously... enjoy playing games and helping game devs be better so I get to have a better time? I'm all in for that.

4. Believe it or not, contrasts can heighten tension. Chiaroscuro is a drawing/painting concept embodying that, and has been mapped into writing, too. Even using "color palette" as a term in writing. And of course, VNs are both writing, and drawing/painting. I'm wincing here, as this can come across as... 'look at how smart I am' and that's really, really not what I want. It's to point out that the human psyche is complex, and responsive to things that aren't... common sense? but that 1000's of years of artists have sniffed out and written out their findings. Most people know, and understand, that if you paint a picture with predominantly red palettes, you're going to induce Passionate feelings in the viewer... War, Anger, Hate, Vengence even, but also Love, Lust, Health, and Energy. And if you're going to play with emotions, and want maximum effect from your efforts, then looking into the master's works and findings is going to make you, and your art, not "better" but more "pointed" and "poignant." I know a very very small amount of that kind of thing, and almost entirely as a reader's perspective, but enough so that I know its effective. And seperates the good artists from the epic artists.

4a. Only you can decide if the project is "dumb." I don't think it is. Let's talk about the first scenes... You wanted to set-up tension. Mystery/confusion. Gotcha. But the intro is also where we meet the characters. So you have to introduce them, and you have to do it in a way that supports your goals of tension and confusion. ... But you also have to take into account the viewer's initial assumptions. Things like "little girls are innocent and to be protected." "Entitled Bratty little shitcunts don't deserve my bootheel." Which one is the average reader going to default too.... UNLESS they have some reason to think the 2nd.
... spitballing here to give you ideas and understanding, not suggestions in anyway shape or form...

Let's go with a "long bright palette setting" first.... what if the whole world is roses and cream, but the little shit is horrible, nasty, etc? Well you've established a motivation for the antagonist, good. No one will be surprised the little shit is kidnapped and... brainfucked. But that's basic levels of tension... You could ramp up tension there, and introduce puzzles as a game mechanic, by having them "safe" and "rewarding" in the bright sides... Say a "friendly" game of pickup sticks between two guards as they await her royal ass-don't-smell highnesses unplanned stop at a... candy shop. Winning the game gives the reader an upskirt as the guards are on bended knee as she gets into the car (unladylike cause... she's not a lady... further building the narrative), and failure just prolongs the game scene, or even a failure has a negative occurance... little miss prissy britches scolds the guards for not noticing she was ready to go. Building the reader's ire towards the "innocent sweet little girl" and also ramping tension by things like a guard muttering... "One day, someone's gonna kidnap her, and in pure self-defense teach her to be a decent human being, so she's worth any ransom..." or "I hope someone kidnaps her, so she finally realizes she's not worth even two shillings of ransom."
Then, when the kidnapping happens, the reader has his own tension... "She's a bitch, but... she's an innocent girl." And you're well on your way to where you want to be.

But... The situation, TO ME, was.... "Oh, here's a sweet innocent girl... okay, she's a bit not so nice, maybe rude." boom kidnapped and in a dark cellar in distress... "MUST RESCUE!" is the normal mental reaction to that... not enough tension about HER to think she might have earned this. Sure, you do build that "bitch" tension afterwards but... she's still go so much natural plot armor on that she remains... sympathetic for farm longer than your narrative can support the reader.


Re: didn't feel the tension in my feedback... whelp. what can I say. Author's write, critiques can't, so the critique... :) But no, seriously, I failed to establish the emotions I wanted in my reader, so I failed completely there. I normally and a fairly light and joking person, so for me to go somber... well, _I_ knew I was being somber and trying to mount tension without break... and I failed... Cause I assumed what I knew and felt, was what was already going on in the reader's head... I failed exactly the way I critiqued. I wish I'd done that purposefully, so I didn't look like an idiot but.... I failed. :) Still, its illustrative of the points I made.

Please keep going, I eagerly await what you do next!
 
Interesting artwork but this back and forth story is just too odd to play with.
 
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