discussion Ren'Py [Koikatsu] Kaedama [0.12.0] [Kaeru]

[Bethoniel]

I don't know if you understand how much of a nightmare that is gonna be in the future, unless this is going to be either a short game or a very linear game where your choices doesn't have that much impact outside of i want this girl in the harem or not

Exactly that. AAA games with million-dollar budgets haven't succeeded in making 'every decision matter.' Often, it has been reduced to just a few decisions. It's simply not feasible to have thousands of different decisions in a game, with each individual decision having a noticeable impact on the story.

I seriously doubt that it will be any different here.

I believe a menu with choices is too limited and quite boring to be frank. In here you can glean certain information based on their responses, you would not get with a choice menu. And since a lot of questions have a wild variety of answers you can give, it would require a choice menu with 40+ options, which would be rather jarring to look at.
As far as good direction guessing goes, I made the questions rather straight forward and most characters have their emotions on their sleeve, so it shouldn't be too difficult to guess what response they want to hear.

I'll be blunt: I'm not a fan of the system. Your assumption here is also wrong. You build a dialog tree precisely to avoid having 40 or more options in one dialog.

And besides, it's not the way you conduct the dialogs that has to be captivating, but the dialogs themselves have to be captivating.

Instead of having a branching dialog tree, you have a flat line of dialog.

Nobody says that the player has to see all 40 dialog options at once. No one in their right mind, or who can write, would do that either.

Instead, you put the question of why the NPC is wearing swimming goggles in the first three or four dialog options, and when the NPC then reveals to the player that he is in the swimming club, you can give the player the question of whether swimming is his hobby as an option in the current part of the dialog tree. But you can also just write the dialog without player input instead. Nobody is saying that the player has to have a dialog choice after every second sentence, or that he needs a large selection of dialog options.

I don't know where you got the idea that you need 40+ dialog options. Why isn't it enough to have only 4 or 5 options with the same information behind them? To me, it sounds like your system is complex for the sake of complexity, not because it makes your game better.

What does your game gain from this overly complex system in which the player has to guess and in which you have to point out what he has to enter? Why do you think this would be a good game system?
What advantage does your system have over a normal dialog tree with branching selections?
In my opinion, there isn't one. I would really reconsider whether the system makes sense, and whether a normal dialog selection with a dialog tree wouldn't be better. When I see how many reactions you have just to know whether the player needs a tutorial or not, I wonder if this is really necessary, especially when 99.999% of your players would probably not have been bothered if you had given a simple choice between yes or no.

In most cases, less is more. But that's just my opinion. You decide what your game looks like and what features you offer. If you think your system is best for the game, then use it. But be prepared that, at least in my opinion, it will probably not attract many players, but rather scare them away. But I'm happy to be proven wrong here.

In any case, I wish you and your game good luck.

 

[Kaeru]

It's simply not feasible to have thousands of different decisions in a game, with each individual decision having a noticeable impact on the story.

Yeah, that's why I don't have every decision making a huge, noticeable impact. I restrict it in many ways, to not overwork and overcomplicate it, but it's a very fair point to bring up.

I'll be blunt: I'm not a fan of the system. Your assumption here is also wrong. You build a dialog tree precisely to avoid having 40 or more options in one dialog.

Totally understandable. I've seen many people say they don't understand it, find it complicated or simply want yellow paint.
I am not sure about your point on the 40 dialog options parts. I don't expect or think people show try and explore each and every dialog parts, especially when something like choosing cola over fanta won't exactly change the dialog besides a "Here's a cola.'

What advantage does your system have over a normal dialog tree with branching selections?

A dialog tree is very limited in what it can do. Not only does it remove some parts of the fun of exploring, it gives a personality to the MC, which I don't want. I want the MC to be 99% blank and have the player be able to self insert and respond in whatever way they see fit instead of seeing the MC give thoughts or say words that you in no way feel. (Looking at you Persona 5 for telling me I feel bad about Morgana leaving.)
I do not know how far you've gotten into Kaedama or what you've tried and haven't tried, but there are a few inputs that people have really enjoyed and given me very positive feedback about, something you can't ever get with a dialog tree. For example, there is a scene where one of my characters is looking at some books with her back turned, the player has the ability to choose several different ways to approach her, including groping, yelling, hugging, scaring, etc. Having this in a tree that reveals all the choices out there ruins the element of surprise where you type something and see "You slowly get behind her and throw your arms around her." For me personally, it adds a layer of fun where you get excited to try out different things.
Additionally, it adds more to the relationship you have with a love interest. You can tell a girl "Hey, my favourite ice cream is chocolate" where the character could respond with "Me too, we have so much in common", to gain some affection compared to having a few options to select from.

But be prepared that, at least in my opinion, it will probably not attract many players, but rather scare them away.

Very fair point and hey, if people are scared away, so be it. Kaedama is a game based on what I like and want in a game. I never made it with the idea of "What will attract the most people?" and only focus on what I have never experienced or seen in a VN.

I'll close off by thanking you for the feedback. I truly appreciate it, because hey, harsh and fair criticism helps me a lot. Thanks for giving me a chance and I guess time will tell whether people like it or not.

 

[Bethoniel]

A dialog tree is very limited in what it can do. Not only does it remove some parts of the fun of exploring, it gives a personality to the MC, which I don't want. I want the MC to be 99% blank and have the player be able to self insert and respond in whatever way they see fit instead of seeing the MC give thoughts or say words that you in no way feel. (Looking at you Persona 5 for telling me I feel bad about Morgana leaving.)

But you are doing nothing else. You have a dialog tree, it just is more of a log instead of a tree, and you hide the options. Instead of typing 1 to choose the first option, or to click on it, you type a word, or a sentence, or part of it, in hope the game recognises it as a valid option.

What you are doing differently is having a silent player character in the worst possible way. You basically created a player character, whos only role is to start conversations he will never be part of, because everyone is talking at him, instead of with him. There will never be any real conversation with him because you bereft the character of having feelings, or thoughts. That will never change, as long as you avoid to write a player character. Having a relatable character has nothing to do with how the player feels about the characters actions, but with if he can understand why the character feels that way. If you are good enough, you can write a mass murdering rapist, and the reader will root for him instead of the hero.

You really should overthink what you are doing here. At the moment, this is nothing more, than a really badly programed chatbot (in regards to other cahtbots which use ai to process their reactions).
Don't misunderstand me, I don't want to discourage you, and I am not telling to stop developing your game.
The dialog system is... well not to my liking, let's be honest here. There's a reason no one uses this anymore, but it is still usable. But not writing a main character, is something I have to strongly discourage you from. Your game will be so much better, if you go the extra mile. There is a reason everyone and his mother does it.

As I said, in the end it is your game, and you do you. But I really hope you'll think about it.

 

[mettersan]

the kind of game you want to make would fit in more in RAGS than Renpy. While it's cool in concept, it won't do much without proper NLP and it's hard to see that implemented in a random renpy game.

 

[Kaeru]

But you are doing nothing else. You have a dialog tree, it just is more of a log instead of a tree, and you hide the options. Instead of typing 1 to choose the first option, or to click on it, you type a word, or a sentence, or part of it, in hope the game recognises it as a valid option.

A dialog tree reveals too much and would ruin the overall GUI, because there are too many different responses to include. And sure, I could limit all responses to maybe a max of 10, but that would make the MC less you. And like I said, I think being able to unlock a special response through a certain keyphrase makes a game more fun. It's like a little easter egg you can find. And there's also that typing in an actual response makes it feel a bit more personal.

There will never be any real conversation with him because you bereft the character of having feelings, or thoughts. That will never change, as long as you avoid to write a player character. Having a relatable character has nothing to do with how the player feels about the characters actions, but with if he can understand why the character feels that way.

I gotta disagree there. I don't want to tell people what emotions they should be feeling in a particular scene and I'd rather people form their own thoughts and feelings on a character rather than say "You feel horrible about this."
As for the writing a MC, the reason why I am not writing a player character is because with how I want my game to play out, making the MC a good guy, a pervert, a rapist or anything else would not only be me telling people how they should react to scenes, it would cause too much conflict with how a person might want to play the game. Let's say you insult every character at every chance you get, I can't possibly write any sympathetic monologues, because you've been acting like an asshole the entire time.
Adding to that, I think people should be able to figure out how a character feels through body language and context. I don't think I should have to tell the player that a crying girl that comes in the dead of night, knocking on your door looking for someone to console her, is sad and wants you to hang out with her.

At the moment, this is nothing more, than a really badly programed chatbot (in regards to other cahtbots which use ai to process their reactions).

Just to clear up any misconception, I don't and never plan on using AI for this. Kaedama uses a pretty basic synonym system where I pick and choose which response will garner with reaction. It's all hard coded and sure, this might make it so you can't talk about the weather when a girl asks if you like ice cream, but you probably shouldn't go into this game expecting it to function like a chatbot would. The questions are usually pretty straightforward in my opinion, so it should not be all too difficult to answer.

The dialog system is... well not to my liking, let's be honest here. There's a reason no one uses this anymore, but it is still usable. But not writing a main character, is something I have to strongly discourage you from. Your game will be so much better, if you go the extra mile. There is a reason everyone and his mother does it.

Totally fine and understandable if the dialog system is not for you. If a certain game mechanic is not for you, it's not for you. Many different tastes and flavours and all that.
I gotta disagree with you there. What's common does not exactly equal what's good. Part of why I started developing my own game as due to seeing games telling me how I should be feeling about characters/scenes while I felt an exact opposite way and things like that will ruin the entire scene for me, because I will feel so dissociated. Not to say I can't view it from their perspective, but I believe that when someone writes a character as a self insert, it should not be making assumptions on how I feel.

As I said, in the end it is your game, and you do you. But I really hope you'll think about it.

I have thought it before and I'll always think about it, but so far the couple of people I have talked to do seem to like it.

 

[Kaeru]

the kind of game you want to make would fit in more in RAGS than Renpy. While it's cool in concept, it won't do much without proper NLP and it's hard to see that implemented in a random renpy game.

Interesting, I have never heard of RAGS before. I'll take a look at it later and see how this thing works.
I don't really plan on using an NLP for several reasons. AI just isn't advanced and smart enough to properly convey the emotions I want my characters to have. Additionally, in order for that to work, I would need to make sure I can gather date to improve the NLP and there's not really a way to do that with an offline game as far as I know. Also, I am very much an idiot, so using something that I won't be able to fix if issues were to arise is probably not the best idea.
Thanks for the feedback though, I appreciate it.

 

[JAMK]

the kind of game you want to make would fit in more in RAGS than Renpy.

I love the idea of this game but this is a very good point, i don't think that Renpy is the way to go for this kind of game

 

[zedascove]

What's the current content? Are the tags updated?

 

[Kaeru]

What's the current content? Are the tags updated?

I don't believe the tags are updated, but so far there isn't anything that's really lewd, besides some groping.

 

[Ryuji]

This reminded me Ecchi Sensei, the part that gave the most vibes was the nurse, as I did not play until the end yet to be sure if we have more.

 

[Lorudo]

Having to scroll to see the choice options every time gets annoying very fast

 

[Kaeru]

Having to scroll to see the choice options every time gets annoying very fast

Yeah, I can see that. What would you prefer? I could change the grid so there's 2 or 3 options side to side.

 

[Lorudo]

Yeah, I can see that. What would you prefer? I could change the grid so there's 2 or 3 options side to side.

I don't really mind where they are, as long as you can see all the options at once.
Vertical of the left side of the screen, the middle or how they are now in the text window. As long as it shows them all without having to scroll.
I get you want to make something unique, but in my opinion, putting the choices like this is not going to work

 

[Kaeru]

I don't really mind where they are, as long as you can see all the options at once.
Vertical of the left side of the screen, the middle or how they are now in the text window. As long as it shows them all without having to scroll.
I get you want to make something unique, but in my opinion, putting the choices like this is not going to work

That's an interesting idea, I've seen it utilized in a few other games, so I could work something like that in. Thank you.
If you got any other feedback or tips, I'm all ears.

 

[RickS]

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[XbfgX]

I'll be honest I really got bored having to type something in every 5 seconds - soory not for me - deleted

 

[Kaeru]

I'll be honest I really got bored having to type something in every 5 seconds - soory not for me - deleted

Sorry to hear that, thanks for still trying it out.

 

[User_48178]

When it works it's great. Telling Tatsuo that you slept with Kumi to get the surprised reaction followed by Tatsuo teasing her is a good bit of immersion. Being able to tell Chika a field of study and her handing you a notebook with that written on the front is great to see. Listening to students talk about whether to take career goals seriously and not being able to offer help or ask what they want to do makes zero sense for a teacher. Not being able to invite Kumi to stay at your place again after visiting her mom feels like a hugely wasted opportunity. Barely being able to interact with Rini when you find her in the park and she's clearly distressed is maddening.

This should really either be a full blown text input game like BBBen makes, or switch to the more standard Ren'py choices. And for the love of smut please give the MC some dialogue. It's so awkward the way he sits there in silence. I can get that experience plenty in real life as an introvert, I do not need it in my fantasies.

 

[Kaeru]

When it works it's great. Telling Tatsuo that you slept with Kumi to get the surprised reaction followed by Tatsuo teasing her is a good bit of immersion. Being able to tell Chika a field of study and her handing you a notebook with that written on the front is great to see. Listening to students talk about whether to take career goals seriously and not being able to offer help or ask what they want to do makes zero sense for a teacher. Not being able to invite Kumi to stay at your place again after visiting her mom feels like a hugely wasted opportunity. Barely being able to interact with Rini when you find her in the park and she's clearly distressed is maddening.

This should really either be a full blown text input game like BBBen makes, or switch to the more standard Ren'py choices. And for the love of smut please give the MC some dialogue. It's so awkward the way he sits there in silence. I can get that experience plenty in real life as an introvert, I do not need it in my fantasies.

Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed some parts of it.
Those are good suggestions, I will add those inputs in with the career goals. And yeah, I can understand being annoyed by not being able to do much with Rini when you find her. It is mostly part of who she is, not wanting to be bothered when she's out having her dinner.

As much as I'd love to give the MC more dialogue, because yeah, it is a bit more strange and awkward to sit there listening, it's just impossible, since the MC is meant to be you. The MC is completely blank and I don't know what you'd say or do in certain situations. It'd be immersion breaking if I were to give the MC some empathetic lines when in every input prompt you insult, sexually harass or just do other inappropriate stuff to the students.
Thank you again for giving Kaedama a chance and if you got any other feedback, let me know.

 

[SomeoneBlueDa]

Neat concept. Just needs more polish and content