discussion A-T-F Is Closing Down

[LewisCarroll]

The grey zone is about real life, not lolisho. To be precise about real life attractions, not real life abuse. I think almost all who go there agree that acting on these attractions is bad, but we might disagree on the reason why it's bad.
The 80% mean 80% of those who have in real life sexually abused a child. True ****philes (as diagnosed by professional psychologists, not self confessed) are the minority among those. Most are attracted to adults and just use children because they are easier victims, present more opportunities, whatever. The exact numbers vary by source, but all agree that ****philes are the minority.
Repression builds up desire, as was learned during the american prohibition time. But you can substitute real children very well with drawings, animations, ai-generated images, stories, sex dolls, ... There are so many things that do not involve any real children ****philes can use to satisfy their desires at least partially. That can lead to addiction in about the same way normal porn and sex toys can for teleiophiles. But taking away those outlets is stupid if you really care about protecting children.
Equally important is the opportunity to comminicate openly with our peers. Social control within peer groups is an important corrective instrument for detecting and controlling problematic behaviour. A **** who is alone with his thoughts might turn down dangerous paths, but if he can communicate openly and without fear his friends will push him back on the right path. The grey zone is such a place and in my opinion actually increases child safety.

The majority of ****philes is actually quite well adjusted and no danger to any child. They definitely don't need therapy. Some few do, but a forum is no place for that.
Our fantasies are just that, and our ability for self control is just as good as with any other person. Do you suspect anyone who is sexually attracted to adult women of being in danger of veering into criminal territory after interacting with a real person? We are actually more conscious of potentially problematic behaviour than the average teleiophile. Self preservation dictates that.

ATF is a forum called all the fallen, focussing on loli- and shotacon. It also provides space for discussions about real life ****philia (but anyone promoting child abuse is turned over to authorities).
Rori is short for roriwalrus, a similar forum. Many from ATF are now migrating there.

That's a distinction without a difference to most people. Paraphilic disorders are well documented. In the end, it really doesn't weigh in for them. They were taken down from within. Not from without. And, if you are implying it was a 'safe place' or therapeutic forum is misguided. Unless it is structured by a professional psychologist, it will often reinforce behavior (thinking is a behavior). For example, you never ever put two anorexics in the same hospital room as they will 'feed' each others distorted thinking processes. There is however a good argument that transient behavior (like playing a game then moving on) isn't reinforcing. Like, millions play games where they kill people all day long, but they don't go out killing. The issue is when you have a group obsessing over a particular habit that has negative consequences and begin forming cognitive distortions. What I believe you're doing here, for example. There are resources for real therapeutic assistance. A.T.F. isn't one though.

No judgement. Just a clarification for anyone that believes that it's therapeutic to immerse themselves in the topic. That said, I like exploring the dynamics on a story and psychological level. I develop games outside this genera too

 

[i_patchy]

No judgement. Just a clarification for anyone that believes that it's therapeutic to immerse themselves in the topic.

- by that logic incel communities ( or any other echo chamber like communities ) are therapeutic in nature.

 

[doggyboy]

- by that logic incel communities ( or any other echo chamber like communities ) are therapeutic in nature.

Not being fuckable isn't the same as an orientation
I think it would be more like an zoophilia or other paraphilia thread.
Probably good in a theraputic sense if it's just there to let people not feel alone.
Obviously bad if it's encouraging abuse or giving advice on how to abuse.

 

[i_patchy]

Not being fuckable isn't the same as an orientation
I think it would be more like an zoophilia or other paraphilia thread.
Probably good in a theraputic sense if it's just there to let people not feel alone.
Obviously bad if it's encouraging abuse or giving advice on how to abuse.

- my point is that gathering a group of likeminded people in a single room were they are allowed to just languish in their shared misery is hardly therapeutic in nature. And yeah... i would put incels in same category as MAP's and bestilovers, more so i think that there would be a pretty substantial intersection between those.

 

[doggyboy]

- my point is that gathering a group of likeminded people in a single room were they are allowed to just languish in their shared misery is hardly therapeutic in nature. And yeah... i would put incels in same category as MAP's and bestilovers, more so i think that there would be a pretty substantial intersection between those.

As an older bi guy that grew up somewhere I could have been killed if anyone found out about my orientation, it is absolutely theraputic to be able to talk about attractions you can't act upon.
Incel isn't an orientation, it's a social class.

 

[Chrissy]

That's a distinction without a difference to most people. Paraphilic disorders are well documented. In the end, it really doesn't weigh in for them. They were taken down from within. Not from without.

I don't understand you meaning here...

And, if you are implying it was a 'safe place' or therapeutic forum is misguided.

Um, I think I said the opposite:

They definitely don't need therapy. Some few do, but a forum is no place for that.

A forum is no therapy. But it can be helpful just to open up and stop hiding for a while. While I agree that a forum can become an echo chamber and reinforce bad thought patterns, that usually happens when there are no opposing positions. The ATF grey zone isn't like that, there is heated discussion going on. In case you are not aware of that, there are two major groups of ****philes: Pro-Contact and Anti-Contact. Contact refers to sexual contact here. The Pro-C group argues that sex with children can be harmless if done right, and refrain from doing it only because of the laws. Anti-C (which I belong to) believe that at least without major social changes (and likely even with them) harm is almost unavoidable, so even without the laws sex with children is wrong.
Add into the mix quite a few non-****phile lolishos, and the echo becomes pretty muted.

 

[LewisCarroll]

I don't understand you meaning here...

Um, I think I said the opposite:

A forum is no therapy. But it can be helpful just to open up and stop hiding for a while. While I agree that a forum can become an echo chamber and reinforce bad thought patterns, that usually happens when there are no opposing positions. The ATF grey zone isn't like that, there is heated discussion going on. In case you are not aware of that, there are two major groups of ****philes: Pro-Contact and Anti-Contact. Contact refers to sexual contact here. The Pro-C group argues that sex with children can be harmless if done right, and refrain from doing it only because of the laws. Anti-C (which I belong to) believe that at least without major social changes (and likely even with them) harm is almost unavoidable, so even without the laws sex with children is wrong.
Add into the mix quite a few non-****phile lolishos, and the echo becomes pretty muted.

No, I have no clue what's going on there tbh. I visit the mod's, tools and programing (git) parts of the form because I'm a dev. They also have a lot of tools.

I said distinction without a difference because most people don't care, it's all bad. Regardless of intent. And I meant purely therapeutic. Not therapy. They are distinctly different. [Potential] abusers should seek therapy while the abused require therapeutic resources. Think of it this way. Alcoholics are told to avoid situations or environments that may lead to consumption of alcohol. Going to a website that is devoted to said topic is never recommended. You're deluding yourself otherwise. If you were truly serious about it, you'd only visit traditional porn sites or adult games like at F.95.

Any behavior can be normalized - absolutely any. From the most horrific to the most mundane. If you base your argument on that premise, you've already lost. It's selfish. It's self serving. It's egotistical.

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definitively showed the flaws in that kind of thinking. It all comes down to intent. Games, art, literature, etc can be benign or they can be ill intentioned. Many parts of A.T.F. fall into the latter category. How do you know the difference? Easy. When you start to moralize the behavior to others or yourself.

I may be playing on the edges of this philosophy [or crossing them entirely], but I will not moralize the topic. As long as it's just pixels I personally don't think it has a deleterious affect on those which the topic is about. Though, it probably corrupts adults, but at least they are [supposed to] know that they are being corrupted and therefore able to understand how to counter it. Those under a certain age cannot because they literally do not have the cognitive ability to. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Chrissy]

No, I have no clue what's going on there tbh. I visit the mod's, tools and programing (git) parts of the form because I'm a dev. They also have a lot of tools.

I said distinction without a difference because most people don't care, it's all bad. Regardless of intent. And I meant purely therapeutic. Not therapy. They are distinctly different. [Potential] abusers should seek therapy while the abused require therapeutic resources. Think of it this way. Alcoholics are told to avoid situations or environments that may lead to consumption of alcohol. Going to a website that is devoted to said topic is never recommended. You're deluding yourself otherwise. If you were truly serious about it, you'd only visit traditional porn sites or adult games like at F.95.

Any behavior can be normalized - absolutely any. From the most horrific to the most mundane. If you base your argument on that premise, you've already lost. It's selfish. It's self serving. It's egotistical.

You must be registered to see links

definitively showed the flaws in that kind of thinking. It all comes down to intent. Games, art, literature, etc can be benign or they can be ill intentioned. Many parts of A.T.F. fall into the latter category. How do you know the difference? Easy. When you start to moralize the behavior to others or yourself.

I may be playing on the edges of this philosophy [or crossing them entirely], but I will not moralize the topic. As long as it's just pixels I personally don't think it has a deleterious affect on those which the topic is about. Though, it probably corrupts adults, but at least they are [supposed to] know that they are being corrupted and therefore able to understand how to counter it. Those under a certain age cannot because they literally do not have the cognitive ability to. Hope that makes sense.

It does make some sense, but it misses my point entirely.
I'm not trying to normalize sexual abuse of children, quite the opposite. I'm absolutely opposed to it. And so are all other Anti-C. By arguing against Pro-C proponents we try to make the world a little bit safer for children. If there was no forum where such exchange can happen, Pro-C people would be confined to their own echo chambers without opposing opinions. Exactly the bad scenario you described. Only by having an open exchange can this be broken.

 

[FreddieManny11]

Given the current trends, it's not the fact that the site has ceased to exist that is surprising, but the fact that it has only just happened. It was clear a year and a half ago that this resource was doomed. As for the lack of any privacy on the Internet, we are all adults, not children, does anyone still believe in some kind of privacy?

It sucks that privacy has been eliminated online but like anything, it’s the price you pay for “free” services. If you aren’t paying for the product, you are the product

 

[Dario]

RW has been down for almost 24 hours (hopefully not serious). With the recent decisions to shutdown some sites I’m here and on RW. Can think of other backup options for our hobby.

 

[Hornsindue]

RW has been down for almost 24 hours (hopefully not serious). With the recent decisions to shutdown some sites I’m here and on RW. Can think of other backup options for our hobby.

It doesn't even show up anymore

 

[Dario]

Yeah, not looking good.

 

[Hornsindue]

Yeah, not looking good.

Hopefully it'll be back soon

 

[Idontexist3344]

Hope so too... Ain't gonna be a site like ATF now Worst part is the years of Skyrim modding history that'll be lost (Shotaborn, Solus, Wasabi: SOL)

 

[i_patchy]

As an older bi guy that grew up somewhere I could have been killed if anyone found out about my orientation, it is absolutely theraputic to be able to talk about attractions you can't act upon.

- being bi and being **** is a big difference. Sitting in circle of such like minded people and crying about inability of acting on your desires and overall just wallow in misery isnt therapeutic in the slightest.

Incel isn't an orientation, it's a social class.

- ridiculous. Not to mention, that comparison was made with overall effect of such echo chamber gatherings. Some of self proclaimed "incels" have just minor psychological problems that could be easily overcome, but after joining such online groups they get suck in this world of mostly self inflicted misery, which just worsen their condition.

 

[IJustWantGames]

Has there been any word or has anyone even asked harki or any of the other mod devs what the future of sims/skyrim mods will be? Obviously not easy to keep them going without the site but I haven't heard anything, you know wickedwhims creator is going to make sure those mods are unusable shortly after the site shuts down lol

 

[Moped]

I was mostly there for the games and such. So all the buzz is pretty new to me

Same, I spent a lot of time modding skyrim, then VR skyrim with the mods on that site. Made me better at reading all the instructions at work, since the devil in the details of modding is crazy annoying.
Also discovered Wabajack mod list things that mad it super easy for a small subscription to nexus. I kinda want to start another skyrim run again... but it would be like my 50+ attempt at this point to try not to be a stealth archer, only to become a stealth archer.

 

[boresoul]

Stumbled back here trying to find a VN and got surprised by the news, I'll miss you ATF and all the weird people in there.

 

[Ribaso]

I found certain VNs on ATF that I didn't find elsewhere, it was a unique kind of experience as it lasted

 

[Narch]

- being bi and being **** is a big difference. Sitting in circle of such like minded people and crying about inability of acting on your desires and overall just wallow in misery isnt therapeutic in the slightest.


- ridiculous. Not to mention, that comparison was made with overall effect of such echo chamber gatherings. Some of self proclaimed "incels" have just minor psychological problems that could be easily overcome, but after joining such online groups they get suck in this world of mostly self inflicted misery, which just worsen their condition.

To be fair i think his point is that it allows the subject to be discussed with some nuance by a broader group so opositions can be formed, like encouraging self restraint and reproaching more dangerous behaviours. My bias against the gray zone comes from the few times i've read the threads and saw little to no opposition to topics that easily feel like behaviour and thoughts already in escalation. I'm also of the mind that mental therapy is absolutely recquired if your mind constantly nudges you to harmful behavior, we live in cruel times that pushes us to our vices, be it depression, anxiety or anything darker. I can understand the rejection too, psychologists need a lot of trust and i had my fair share of oathbreakers in the field, speaking in depth about sexuality and its effects on one self can be very unconfortable, specially when the repercussions can be damaging, my personal take is to think for yourself over the core of the matter and use ambigous and broad strokes to convey the message until you're sure the person can be trusted with the details (though there are specialized people on the subjects that are trained to not have biased hostile reactions and abide by their oath). In a non related matter i leave all my venom to divorce psychologists that lies to kids to extract info that they can use against their parents in court cases by throwing the kid under the bus.

Post automatically merged: Mar 9, 2026

I found certain VNs on ATF that I didn't find elsewhere, it was a unique kind of experience as it lasted

The discussions on ongoing projects is something i hope can be passed on. Many stuff end up lost in fanbox projects that are nearly impossible to stumble upon due to how the platform works and limited advertisement