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Thoughts on Narrative...

greggchozori

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I've been wondering how important it is to have an MC in a visual novel. While I understand that the first person perspective can aid in pulling people in and making them feel a part of it, novels that use third person perspectives are able to tell fuller stories by allowing you to see more. Most porn is third person, yet that doesn't make it any less enjoyable for many. Yet, I can't recall a single VN from a third person perspective. If there are any please let me know. I'm curious as to how it would feel playing through it. If I had a choice between playing a VN involving an incestuous family living under the same roof I'd rather not be limited to only seeing the experiences of one person within in. Although, that perception could change upon playing a VN from a third person perspective.
 
The importance of having an MC really comes down to what kind of story you're trying to tell. It's impossible to tell a story without some form of perspective character, even stories in third person has "main characters", there's no getting around it without getting very avant garde and esoteric. For the most part porn visual novels stick to a single main character because the fantasy or experience that the game is trying to sell is that of self-insertion and usually the building of a harem, or for the perspective character BEING the experiencer. The latter is especially prevalent in games with a female protagonist, as for the most part it seems that the way the narratives frame the kinks and sexual scenes are as things that happen to the protagonist. Even the act of chosing to engage in sexual activity or perversion is something that is being done to female characters, because in those games the kink being sold is that of corruption. With games like this, the use of third person or other perspectives characters tend to be one of scenes to act as often either displays of how the mcs actions are affecting a love interest (like a mother character catching a male MC masturbating to someone's underwear and is overcome by lust or some such and absolutely can't look away), or how another characters actions are about to affect the mc (such as some perverted street thug checking out hot female mc and is about to mug them and possibly more).

Whether or not this style of framing a story is more enjoyable for people is debatable. It's certainly an easy way to write a story, and useful to catering to certain kinks or desires. But it is limiting in the kinds of stories and experiences. A good example of this I would say would be the game Seeds of Chaos, which while primarily is from the point of view single character, does have EXCELLENT scenes from the perspective of his wife. While it does lean towards the NTR side of the spectrum, there's enough of a polyamory spin on choices you can make that I particularly enjoy. By having multiple, or at the very least by having a secondary perspective, even if limited to a few spots in the game, the story and kinks that the game is then able to give to the play are so much richer and nuanced, though a lot of that comes down to the skill of the writing rather than just the use of perspective itself.

In regards to what Person the perspective is in is another matter. You claim porn is in third person but you can't quite apply first second and third person to film. There's a level of cinematic theory I could go into that I am NOT well versed in enough to explain, so let's just leave it as in regards to written stories, first second and third person are a matter of language: "I did this" "you did this" "they did this". This is all relevant to visual novels and narrative based games as it frames how the story interacts with the player. First person is something being presented to the player. This is your Phoenix Wright kinda perspective. A story about a specific character experiencing the arc of the narrative, where the game lays around the choices, not within the choices, e.g Danganronpa offering you the choice in what characters to get close to and have free time scenes with, but the game is in the trials. Second person is agency and experience being given to the player. This is your Slay the Princess kinda games where your choices matter and the experience is aimed at you. This is a perspective very common with visual novels, especially self insert porn games, to the point of almost being unnoticed. Third person on the other hand can be used to build distance between the player and the characters. In my experience this perspective can occasionally be found in trainer-esque style porn games like Tara's Liberation, where the focus is on corrupting a female protagonist. This particular person isn't all that common, and in truth doesn't necessarily lend itself to the kind of perspective switches you're describing. It's all top easy to stay locked into a single characters perspective even when the writing is in third person. A game that you could consider a third person game in the sense that you want, i.e a game where the perspective shifts between multiple people, would probably be something like Detroit Become Human. A game with multiple protagonists, who the player rotates between through the story and who's decisions affect.

As for porn games that do this kind of perspective rotating... Couldn't tell ya. It would be nice to experience a standard incest game set up from the various perspectives of the family members, but I think the reason why there aren't games that do something like that is because they just ... Don't see a need for that. Or because it's easier to stick with the simple thing and because the core hook/experience of the game doesn't necessitate the switching out of perspectives. It's just easier to stick to one character for most of the time.

I dunno. Sorry for the essay I just had a lot I wanted to say
 
There's a game Next Steps where you can play as at least three characters (a father, his new wife, and his son).

But I suspect the main reason we don't see more multi-protagonist games (or at least incest games) is that a large or at least loud portion of the playerbase wants to identify with a single main character and will loudly cry NTR about a game where you play as multiple characters and the sexual interactions aren't limited to just one guy.
 
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There's a game Next Steps where you can play as at least three characters (a father, his new wife, and his son).

But I suspect the main reason we don't see more multi-protagonist games (or at least incest games) is that a large or at least loud portion of the playerbase wants to identify with a single main character and will loudly cry NTR about a game where you play as multiple characters and the sexual interactions aren't limited to just one guy.
Do people still cry "NTR" if the characters are in open relationships?
 
Do people still cry "NTR" if the characters are in open relationships?
Honestly yeah, they do actually. They call it on things that aren't even NTR. Woman has a boyfriend and is implied to have had sex with him at a point in which she hasn't even interacted with the MC in a sexual way? NTR. Two girls in MC's harem kiss and fool around when player isn't around? NTR, how DARE they not be absolutely celibate unless fucking exclusively for the pleasure of the self insert main character.

It's pathetic honestly
 
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Honestly yeah, they do actually. They call it on things that aren't even NTR. Woman has a boyfriend and is implied to have had sex with him at a point in which she hasn't even interacted with the MC in a sexual way? NTR. Two girls in MC's harem kiss and fool around when player isn't around? NTR, how DARE they not be absolutely celibate unless fucking exclusively for the pleasure of the self insert main character.

It's pathetic honestly
So then I guess making a game where the main character is a eunuch probably isn't a good idea :ROFLMAO:
 
The way I see it is this: with first person you get to project yourself in the fantasy and bang your waifu.
In third person, you're a voyeur watching other couples shag or sharing your waifu. If you're into voyeur stuff then third person is fine, but some see it as borderline NTR.

I wanna be the one banging hot milfs in my area, so I'll stick to first person rather than listen to some guy's account of how he banged half of "Smallville Whateverthestate".
 
Do people still cry "NTR" if the characters are in open relationships?

I have honestly seen people cry NTR over optional scenes where the MC's married parents had sex with each other.

There really is no limit; for some people any and every female character must be exclusively sexually available to the MC or it's NTR.
 
A lot of vns already depict other character's thoughts and actions excluding the protagonists if that's the full story you are talking about. On top of that, I think male protagonists in hgames serves a purpose to make male players, the major player base, to immerse into the plot. On the contrary, female protagonists makes players empathize so there's an illusion of feelings those arouse the players. Last but not the least, I think protagonists in general serves a purpose to help players focus on what to develop throughtout the game.
 
there is a difference between "not having an MC" and "third-person"

there are a decent amount of management style games where you run a brothel or similar; and most sex is between your employees and their clients. the player has a 3rd person perspective in these style games.

I have at least once seen a game where you control different people depending on the scene. Usually a male MC, who controls the actions of a love interest while the two are separated (i.e. girl goes on vacation, player controls girl for that time). I want to say snow daze has you controlling most of the family, but it's been a long time since I played it.

I think what you're wanting is an "Ensemble Cast" (several characters are given roughly equal importance).
I'd rather not be limited to only seeing the experiences of one person within
generally, I think it's hard to create separated characters that the player wants to engage with equally. and trying to connect their stories multiplies complexity for relatively little gain.

Its usually simpler to just have a single MC fuck everyone. Or, create multiple games in the same universe.

Overall, I think it could be done well, but it has a pretty specific use.
 
There are two strong reasons AVNs always have an MC:

The technical reason is that whereas novels with no protagonist are fine, this doesn't work well for non-kinetic visual novels. Very occasionally I have seen a game ask the player to decide for a character who is not the MC, and not even the temporary MC (some games make someone else such as a love interest a temporary MC just for one scene or chapter). This always feels totally off.

Perhaps even more important is that so many players outright demand that they can identify with the MC, even to the point of choosing the MC's name. While this doesn't seem very healthy, if you want your game to be successful or even want to earn some money with it, that's probably not a group of people you want to lose unnecessarily.
 
There's regular POV porn for a reason and I've got the feeling that most VR porn actually is POV. Personally I also prefer the 3rd person perspective for better angles on most scenes. Blackmailing the Family is a mixed bag in that regard. On one hand the story is told from your perspective as MC, on the other hand you'll also view scenes you do not take part in yourself.
 
I've been wondering how important it is to have an MC in a visual novel. While I understand that the first person perspective can aid in pulling people in and making them feel a part of it, novels that use third person perspectives are able to tell fuller stories by allowing you to see more. Most porn is third person, yet that doesn't make it any less enjoyable for many. Yet, I can't recall a single VN from a third person perspective. If there are any please let me know. I'm curious as to how it would feel playing through it. If I had a choice between playing a VN involving an incestuous family living under the same roof I'd rather not be limited to only seeing the experiences of one person within in. Although, that perception could change upon playing a VN from a third person perspective.
Preference and perspective.

I think a lot of adult games or VN's would fail if they didn't have a MC of some shape.
The Blue people thing is odd, it's more distracting than anything else, which feels like the opposite of what they were going for :D

Most of my appeal for adult games is the agency, the feel of being immersed and at least partially in control.
Take that away, and it's less interesting, to me anyways
 
I've been wondering how important it is to have an MC in a visual novel. While I understand that the first person perspective can aid in pulling people in and making them feel a part of it, novels that use third person perspectives are able to tell fuller stories by allowing you to see more. Most porn is third person, yet that doesn't make it any less enjoyable for many. Yet, I can't recall a single VN from a third person perspective. If there are any please let me know. I'm curious as to how it would feel playing through it. If I had a choice between playing a VN involving an incestuous family living under the same roof I'd rather not be limited to only seeing the experiences of one person within in. Although, that perception could change upon playing a VN from a third person perspective.
I got an idea reading that, what if the story goes around a voyeur MC stalking a family that is falling into incest and you are a creep installing cameras and following them and even pushing them into it hacking into their davices to hear them and/or changing their advertisement id so it shows incest porn ads etc.
It technically is a third person POV novel written from the perspective of the stalker.
 
Readers need something or someone to anchor them through a story. Without one, they are adrift in a sea of events with no direction. First person, present perfect, is the easiest story vehicle for most people (thus it being used in VN), but it lacks aspects third person can provide. The simple answer is, if you are skilled at writing you'll know the tradeoffs and work within the confines of your narrative. However, skill is not the determiner of successful stories. There are some really atrocious writers out there that succeed because their stories are compelling.
 
If you're worried about not being able to show other perspectives (i.e. cutting to another group of characters while they do something away from the MC) I don't think it'd really be that big of an issue if you just did something like a [MEANWHILE] cut and did that scene from third person perspective, reverting back to first once it comes back to the MC.

On the other hand, if you want to show other characters' thoughts while they're talking with the MC then that would probably require either third-person perspective or an MC capable of mind reading.
 
I've been wondering how important it is to have an MC in a visual novel. While I understand that the first person perspective can aid in pulling people in and making them feel a part of it, novels that use third person perspectives are able to tell fuller stories by allowing you to see more. Most porn is third person, yet that doesn't make it any less enjoyable for many. Yet, I can't recall a single VN from a third person perspective. If there are any please let me know. I'm curious as to how it would feel playing through it. If I had a choice between playing a VN involving an incestuous family living under the same roof I'd rather not be limited to only seeing the experiences of one person within in. Although, that perception could change upon playing a VN from a third person perspective.
The only game I recall with even a little narrative is the first 2 mins of taffy tales (as far a I remember) but can’t think of any other game
 
pretty important just as a story telling element.
 
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