discussion Ren'Py DAZ Confusion [V 1.01] [AVNSnax]

[Mr-Mirari]

good game, sad there is not harem ending

 

[AVNSnax]

To be honest, this comment is examplary of what I dislike most about this game: the way that politics are being pushed into the narrative.

Funny. I don't know if you're a troll that just gets off on starting fights, or if you're just uninformed. There are no political overtones in the game, at all. The fact that you chose to see it that way doesn't make it so.

I'd guess from your comments that you don't actually know anyone who's trans, and don't understand gender issues. That's okay. Nobody requires you to. But if you are going to make such statements, you should truly understood the issues:

In Congress today, there are over 60 anti-trans bills targeting healthcare, sports, incarceration, military service, identification, education, and on and on, all introduced since Trump was elected.

In particular, the KOSA (Kids Online Safety Act) is merely a weapon to censor trans-related content, in addition to gay/lesbian/bi mentions, to "protect minors."

Speaking of your "tax dollars," Trump also spent the inordinate sums of money required to change every single mention of LGBTQI+ in all government documents and websites to remove the TQI+ portion of that acronym. Just because.

New legislation just passed in Tennessee make gender affirmation care for minors a crime. Puberty blockers and hormone treatments can be prescribed to minors for other purposes. Just not for gender dysphoria.

Texas alone passed over 200 anti-LGBTQI+ bills this year alone. Kansas passed a barbaric law that was vetoed by their governor, and was still overridden by their legislature to force detransition of minors by the end of this year.

Several states have passed laws removing trans individuals from civil rights protections altogether, meaning it's no longer considered hateful or harmful to discriminate on someone based solely on their gender choices.

These are all coordinated measures meant to erase trans identities, block access to gender-affirming care, silence the mere mention of transgender people so that "normal" people never hear about it, and removes civil protections meant to shelter trans people from being denied employment, housing, healthcare, and public services solely based on their gender.

And, thanks to the vitriol espoused thanks to the "normalization" of these types of measures, trans people live more in fear than at any time since the 1950's. Hell, you have Nancy Mace and Lauren Bobert demanding that less-than-model-looks females drop trou whenever they go into a bathroom to prove that they don't have a dick.

But, yeah, there wasn't a card-carrying, elderly, "sympathetic" Republican in the story. That's the problem.

 

[Freyr]

I'd guess from your comments that you don't actually know anyone who's trans, and don't understand gender issues. That's okay. Nobody requires you to. But if you are going to make such statements, you should truly understood the issues:

Actually, I do. And I do sympathize with them.

In Congress today, there are over 60 anti-trans bills targeting healthcare, sports, incarceration, military service, identification, education, and on and on, all introduced since Trump was elected.

That's the problem with a pendulum, it swings both ways.

I sincerely do feel sad for those trans persons who just want to live their lives but the pendulum did swing a bit too far and now it is swinging the other way.

 

[Hadesoccidental]

Actually, I do. And I do sympathize with them.



That's the problem with a pendulum, it swings both ways.

I sincerely do feel sad for those trans persons who just want to live their lives but the pendulum did swing a bit too far and now it is swinging the other way.

How did it exactly went "too far"? What is that even supposed to mean? Securing trans people's safety is "too far" now?

I'd love to see examples of what you think is "too far".

 

[MasterWatts]

Great game. Amazing storytelling. I agree with the harem post previously but that's because, "Harem, why not!". I was sad to see what happened to the eldest sister. I was really hoping they reconcile before it there.

I usually avoid this, but here goes.

Freyr,
As for these last few posts: Trans people of all ages are still living in fear due hate and discrimination. This results in the lose of family and friends, employment, job opportunities, medical support for both trans and non trans related issues, as well as many others. You may know a few people, as you stated, who aren't like that, but that's a close minded view to the world and how others live.

Yes, hate and discrimination also impact of all backgrounds and diversities. Yes, it's a shame that more isn't being done to protect them too. It doesn't mean we should remove the protections of one group because it seems unfair. We should look at all of the groups and figure out a better solution that can support them .

It honestly feels like you had an agenda even going into the game.

That's my 2 pennies. No more posts from me.

 

[Cybercatman]

Actually, I do. And I do sympathize with them.



That's the problem with a pendulum, it swings both ways.

I sincerely do feel sad for those trans persons who just want to live their lives but the pendulum did swing a bit too far and now it is swinging the other way.

What the hell do that "pendulum" or "too far" mean?

like trans get some right specific to them because they are a group with specific need, nobody else is losing anything, so why some people bothered by that?

Right are not a zero sum game, someone gaining something don't mean it have to be taken from somewhere else, it just mean "we understand that there is a group of person exist with different need"

Like, explain me the logic behind that statement, I'm completely confused by that

to me, some elected people just look for someone to throw under the bus because that distract their base from asking problematic question, like why the ultra rich keep getting richer and richer despite the world going through crisis over crisis while the rest of the population is getting squeezed of any kind of ressources they can provide

 

[Freyr]

How did it exactly went "too far"? What is that even supposed to mean? Securing trans people's safety is "too far" now?

I'd love to see examples of what you think is "too far".

Well known example: the Paris Olympics.
Parts of the opening ceremony could be explained as "not everyone's taste" but that's somewhat ok.
The female boxing competition however was a disgrace. It was unfair as well as actually dangerous for those female top athletes who had to face the eventual winner.

Another example which many people can recognize: people identifying as female (but biologically male) in female toilets and locker rooms.
Part of that problem is that some people try to tell us that "gender" is not binary but a "spectrum".
Which makes the entire topic of male and female spaces moot, even though it is, in fact, very important for many women (and for men as well).

Right are not a zero sum game, someone gaining something don't mean it have to be taken from somewhere else, it just mean "we understand that there is a group of person exist with different need"

My examples above are examples where those rights are not given for free, but impair other peoples rights.

If it were "we understand that there is a group of person exist with different need" then I would have absolutely no problem with it. But sadly it's not like that.

It honestly feels like you had an agenda even going into the game.

Like I said, I do know a few trans people, both FtM and MtF and I do sympathize with them.

I had hoped that the game would teach me more about their challenges, which it did.

However I do feel that politcs are being pushed in the game, as they are now in this discussion, including by myself (although I was replying to a comment made by the dev).

In my opinion, trans (or LGBT) rights don't really benefit from too much political activism, because, like I said, the political pendulum, especially in the US, swings back and forth.
The bigger the noise one group makes, the stronger the other group will oppose them. And when the other group will come to power, it will try to undo what their predecessors did.
Stating that you hate XYZ because XYZ hates you is not productive.

 

[scarlett]

This is the only game I've played to the end that has no fetishes I am interested in. I didn't get remotely horny until the image at the end where she says she still occasionally fucks her sister. The story was very engaging. Although I did often think it must be exhausting to be either crying or furious the entire time.

Also, and I regret typing this before I have finished typing this, in my opinion, trying to get into women's sports was the red line the transsexual community shouldn't have crossed. Until that point there seemed to be a groundswell of support for inclusion and understanding that I can't remember happening before. Then the tide turned around the time of the olympics and the fact we girls have a smaller lung capacity etc became an issue. Now it seems the whole situation is back to, at best, square one and maybe even worse off than before.

 

[Hadesoccidental]

Well, if I ever wondered how people would use forums in the 60s to complain about laws that forbid segregation, I guess I have a good picture now.

 

[Cybercatman]

Well known example: the Paris Olympics.
Parts of the opening ceremony could be explained as "not everyone's taste" but that's somewhat ok.
The female boxing competition however was a disgrace. It was unfair as well as actually dangerous for those female top athletes who had to face the eventual winner.

Another example which many people can recognize: people identifying as female (but biologically male) in female toilets and locker rooms.
Part of that problem is that some people try to tell us that "gender" is not binary but a "spectrum".
Which makes the entire topic of male and female spaces moot, even though it is, in fact, very important for many women (and for men as well).



My examples above are examples where those rights are not given for free, but impair other peoples rights.

If it were "we understand that there is a group of person exist with different need" then I would have absolutely no problem with it. But sadly it's not like that.



Like I said, I do know a few trans people, both FtM and MtF and I do sympathize with them.

I had hoped that the game would teach me more about their challenges, which it did.

However I do feel that politcs are being pushed in the game, as they are now in this discussion, including by myself (although I was replying to a comment made by the dev).

In my opinion, trans (or LGBT) rights don't really benefit from too much political activism, because, like I said, the political pendulum, especially in the US, swings back and forth.
The bigger the noise one group makes, the stronger the other group will oppose them. And when the other group will come to power, it will try to undo what their predecessors did.
Stating that you hate XYZ because XYZ hates you is not productive.

okay, your exemples are kinda bad

If the boxing competition have a problem with an athlete, the problem come from the boxing organisation regulation, not people being trans or not
If the organiser did its work and said the athlete could compete in that category because every parameter are within the rules, then complain using scientific fact on why their decision was bad and how it should be changed
I have zero knowledge on boxing, so i will not comment on their regulation specifically, but if we push your logic to the extreme, do that mean we also have to ban any athlete that happen to have some genetic advantage?
Here some exemple:
- Michal Phelps, swimmer with the most medal of Olympic games history , his body is basically made for swimming, including double-jointed ankles, shoulders and elbows, it give him an advantage over other swimmers
- Usain Bolt, his large body should be a disavantage, but combined with the gene ACTN3 also named the "sprinting gene", allowed him to get multiple world records
- Tony Gwynn had basically perfect vision, better than other baseball athletes, allowing to see the ball better than other players and so giving him a better chance to hit said ball
- Eero Mäntyranta had a mutation in his EPOR gene allowing his blood to carry more oxygen, giving him an advantage in endurance competitions
- André the giant, famous wrestler, got his body because it naturally produced too much growth hormones, which obviously resulted into his higher than average strength

Like, i'm sure if you dig a bit, you can find a ton of other similar exemple in every sport, but for some reason, some people single out the one trans that got a medal for once?
It is why there is rules in every sport that define various limites on who can or cannot participate in event, like a testosterone limite to be able to participate in women category
If you think something is unfair, complain about the regulation, not the person that was within the limites

I would add that, if you dig a bit on your Boxing exemple, you would noticed a few stuff
- those athlete always fought with women, including in the previous 2020 Olympic, weirdly it became a problem only when one of them got medals? If they had such a unfair advantage, why did they not sweep previous competition they participated in? usually it is what happen when someone have such an advantage, they sweep the competition
- the one that "raised" the problem (IBA) is a group known to be so corrupt that it got banned from the IOC, i think i don't need to explain how hard it is to be banned from that kind of organisation for corruption
- i don't know for you, but when an organisation take out weird test result so long after the fact, test apparently done after the athlete defeated a Russian boxer and they refuse to provide actual detail on how the test was done, when said organisation is controlled by Russians and kept fighting with IOC for years before and after that event, I'm not sure i would trust their statement without actual verified proof backing it
- One of the athlete accused is from Algeria, a country with a big Muslim identity, do i need to explain how they see subject like transgender stuff? do you think such a country would let a transgender represent them on a world stage like Olympic games?

Same with the whole toilet thing, who the hell care about what is between other people leg when taking a dump?
Hell, you likely have more chance to get attacked in the toilet by a regular person than by a trans
So, if we follow your logic until the end, all toilets should be closed to avoid that kind of incident?

again, civil right are not zero sum games
If someone get their right clearly defined and it don't take away from other people, that a win for everyone, and it is normal that people try to defend their own right, which mean voicing the problem out, because politic are never going to move unless people complain about it loudly enough and it can threaten their chance of being elected
the only reason that the "other group" is bothered by the "noise" is because they look for groups to push under the bus to avoid their base talking about the real problem of society (like ultra capitalism trying to take away every social advancement for everyone; for the benefit of a handful) , and minorities like trans people are perfect target because of their size and lack of understanding from the general public

 

[Freyr]

okay, your exemples are kinda bad

If the boxing competition have a problem with an athlete, the problem come from the boxing organisation regulation, not people being trans or not
If the organiser did its work and said the athlete could compete in that category because every parameter are within the rules, then complain using scientific fact on why their decision was bad and how it should be changed
I have zero knowledge on boxing, so i will not comment on their regulation specifically, but if we push your logic to the extreme, do that mean we also have to ban any athlete that happen to have some genetic advantage?
Here some exemple:
- Michal Phelps, swimmer with the most medal of Olympic games history , his body is basically made for swimming, including double-jointed ankles, shoulders and elbows, it give him an advantage over other swimmers
- Usain Bolt, his large body should be a disavantage, but combined with the gene ACTN3 also named the "sprinting gene", allowed him to get multiple world records
- Tony Gwynn had basically perfect vision, better than other baseball athletes, allowing to see the ball better than other players and so giving him a better chance to hit said ball
- Eero Mäntyranta had a mutation in his EPOR gene allowing his blood to carry more oxygen, giving him an advantage in endurance competitions
- André the giant, famous wrestler, got his body because it naturally produced too much growth hormones, which obviously resulted into his higher than average strength

Like, i'm sure if you dig a bit, you can find a ton of other similar exemple in every sport, but for some reason, some people single out the one trans that got a medal for once?
It is why there is rules in every sport that define various limites on who can or cannot participate in event, like a testosterone limite to be able to participate in women category
If you think something is unfair, complain about the regulation, not the person that was within the limites

I would add that, if you dig a bit on your Boxing exemple, you would noticed a few stuff
- those athlete always fought with women, including in the previous 2020 Olympic, weirdly it became a problem only when one of them got medals? If they had such a unfair advantage, why did they not sweep previous competition they participated in? usually it is what happen when someone have such an advantage, they sweep the competition
- the one that "raised" the problem (IBA) is a group known to be so corrupt that it got banned from the IOC, i think i don't need to explain how hard it is to be banned from that kind of organisation for corruption
- i don't know for you, but when an organisation take out weird test result so long after the fact, test apparently done after the athlete defeated a Russian boxer and they refuse to provide actual detail on how the test was done, when said organisation is controlled by Russians and kept fighting with IOC for years before and after that event, I'm not sure i would trust their statement without actual verified proof backing it
- One of the athlete accused is from Algeria, a country with a big Muslim identity, do i need to explain how they see subject like transgender stuff? do you think such a country would let a transgender represent them on a world stage like Olympic games?

Same with the whole toilet thing, who the hell care about what is between other people leg when taking a dump?
Hell, you likely have more chance to get attacked in the toilet by a regular person than by a trans
So, if we follow your logic until the end, all toilets should be closed to avoid that kind of incident?

again, civil right are not zero sum games
If someone get their right clearly defined and it don't take away from other people, that a win for everyone, and it is normal that people try to defend their own right, which mean voicing the problem out, because politic are never going to move unless people complain about it loudly enough and it can threaten their chance of being elected
the only reason that the "other group" is bothered by the "noise" is because they look for groups to push under the bus to avoid their base talking about the real problem of society (like ultra capitalism trying to take away every social advancement for everyone; for the benefit of a handful) , and minorities like trans people are perfect target because of their size and lack of understanding from the general public

This kind of relentless arguing is the exact reason why people are tired of this shit.

My original comment was on the line of "too bad that too much politics are being shoved into the game".

I want to play games with interesting stories, and this game did have the potential for that. Unfortunately it got sidetracked by leftist identity politics.

Well, good luck with it if you think this is a productive way of communication.

Btw, LOL at "ultra capitalism" vs. "minorities".

 

[Cybercatman]

Good luck trying to find something that is not "politic", everything have a minimum of politi

This kind of relentless arguing is the exact reason why people are tired of this shit.

My original comment was on the line of "too bad that too much politics are being shoved into the game".

I want to play games with interesting stories, and this game did have the potential for that. Unfortunately it got sidetracked by leftist identity politics.

Well, good luck with it if you think this is a productive way of communication.

Btw, LOL at "ultra capitalism" vs. "minorities".

It is not "relentless arguing", it is a detailed post in a open discussion in a forum on a point that you raised

first, Almost everything is "politic" if you look at it with the right angle, and it always have been, you need to dig stuff like Super Mario on NES to find stuff with zero politic in it, in fact, the best contents are the ones that have a message to carry
Let's take a random movie, Dawn of the dead, if you dig a bit you'll find a message again stuff like

You must be registered to see links

, it is why it is more than one of those random zombie movies, and why it is among the most known movie of the genre and became a reference for multiple zombie content like Dead Rising or Shaun of the Dead
Comics also have a lot of political message inside it, and not in always the most subtle way (Superman Smashes the Klan, Marvel's Secret Empire, almost anything involving the X-men, V for Vendetta, Watchmen...)

and yes, Capitalism pushed to the extreme is the biggest problem humanity created because it benefit only a handful of people that hoard every ressources like some kind of dragon while squeezing everyone below in the ladder, like you think someone cannot live more than decently with just 1 million/year? what the point of getting more and more? what the point of making the live of all your employees a hell just to get a little more dollars, even if that mean providing a worst service? Like it is not like they are going to take all that money to the afterlife, so what the point?
Why do you think all the big companies are always trying to lobby again any kind of regulation? Like you don't even need to dig much to know that a company driven only by greed will not care about their employees or their customers are long as they make more money, even if that mean lying, random exemple, the Tobacco industry perjuring themselves in 1994
Pushing minorities under the bus is the most basic diversion tactic, it is not some kind of leftist identity politic thing, you just need to open a history book to learn about it, there should be quite a few that detail that kind of stuff when speaking of the period of the first half of the 20th century in Europe, but it is just the most famous exemple, that kind of stuff happened multiple time over history, and everywhere

I still note that you answered no point about civil right not being a zero sum game, or how your "pendulum return" concept don't make sense, even after your explanation

 

[Freyr]

first, Almost everything is "politic" if you look at it with the right angle, and it always have been, you need to dig stuff like Super Mario on NES to find stuff with zero politic in it, in fact, the best contents are the ones that have a message to carry

One of the best AVN's at this moment is, in my opinion, Desert Stalker. For sure it also carries a number of messages, like "might is right", "don't ask for what you can take by force" and so on. In a way, this game represents a kind of hyper "capitalism", or rather, a survival of the fittest kind of world. Not extremely pretty by today's standards, but still an intriguing power fantasy. And as long as it remains a fantasy, which is a given in a dystopian setting, I think that's perfectly fine.

Pushing minorities under the bus is the most basic diversion tactic, it is not some kind of leftist identity politic thing, you just need to open a history book to learn about it, there should be quite a few that detail that kind of stuff when speaking of the period of the first half of the 20th century in Europe, but it is just the most famous exemple, that kind of stuff happened multiple time over history, and everywhere

Yet the Jews are now again a heavily prosecuted minority in significant parts of "free West". Because of leftist activism.

I still note that you answered no point about civil right not being a zero sum game, or how your "pendulum return" concept don't make sense, even after your explanation

I did but you don't want to see it.

Do biological women have a right to their own bathroom? Of is that bathroom open to everybody who self-identifies as a woman?

The left has pushed the "self identification" thing, making it almost a crime to assume someone's gender based on physical appearance.
But I think that women do have the right their own bathrooms and that men should keep out. And "men" does include some of those who might self-identify as "women".
In which category serious trans people (like Alex) should fall, no idea, to be honest.
Clearly they are not men anymore but they are not women either and I can imagine some women to take offense if they would want to use the women's bathroom.
On the other hand I would not want to force them to use the men's bathroom either.

 

[Cybercatman]

One of the best AVN's at this moment is, in my opinion, Desert Stalker. For sure it also carries a number of messages, like "might is right", "don't ask for what you can take by force" and so on. In a way, this game represents a kind of hyper "capitalism", or rather, a survival of the fittest kind of world. Not extremely pretty by today's standards, but still an intriguing power fantasy. And as long as it remains a fantasy, which is a given in a dystopian setting, I think that's perfectly fine.



Yet the Jews are now again a heavily prosecuted minority in significant parts of "free West". Because of leftist activism.



I did but you don't want to see it.

Do biological women have a right to their own bathroom? Of is that bathroom open to everybody who self-identifies as a woman?

The left has pushed the "self identification" thing, making it almost a crime to assume someone's gender based on physical appearance.
But I think that women do have the right their own bathrooms and that men should keep out. And "men" does include some of those who might self-identify as "women".
In which category serious trans people (like Alex) should fall, no idea, to be honest.
Clearly they are not men anymore but they are not women either and I can imagine some women to take offense if they would want to use the women's bathroom.
On the other hand I would not want to force them to use the men's bathroom either.

On your AVN exemple, do you think stuff like "Might is right" is a positive message? like seriously? like, usually characters that follow that kind of philosophy are the bad guys in stories (and have been for centuries, it is a subject discussed as far as Plato's work), like Apocalypse in Xmen or Homelander in the Boys
i agree it is fine as a power fantasy setting, but there is still a difference between a message like that and something that say something like "maybe you should not buy stuff you don't need" or "treat other with respect, even if they are slightly different"

On the Jews mention, idk what circle you are frequenting, but if you think that the political right don't have people that hate the jews, you need to expand your horizon, antisemitism exist across the whole spectrum of the political board (but the further you go on the right , the more likely you are going to meet someone that hate other for being different without any actual fact backing them)
I shall also add that there is a difference between antisemitism and manifesting again the decision of the government of Israel, left do mostly the second, even if you do have a part of the extreme that mix anti-capitalism and anti-jews because of stereotype, but those are usually shunned

on the last part, again, when you are taking a dump, who the hell is caring about what is between the leg of the person in next stall that you don't even see? personally i don't
Like what kind of problem could come out of it?
It is not like someone trans is more likely to attack someone than a regular person, unless you have some actual scientific study proving otherwise
and blocking trans people from having access to toilet will not make those toilet safer because if a psychopath want to attack someone in the toilets, they will not care about a "woman only" sign
in the end, the whole toilet thing, like a lot of time with trans, is just fear mongering with only one goal in mind, pointing finger toward a weak group to distract people from actual problem that they don't want to deal with because they benefit from it, or allow them to push their own agenda while everyone is busy trying to witch hunt, again, it is a strategy almost as old as the world, and have been used over and over during humanity history
If instead trying to police who can or not go to the toilet, those politics proposed actual improvement to the society, like improving the prison system to allow a better reinsertion into society once they are out which would lead to a reduction of people falling into crime again
Or stopped trying to privatise public service so their little friends get their hand on those
Or proposed regulation to prevent companies from closing down workplace despite making record high benefits
or worked on handling all those big corp that hide into taxe heavens to avoid paying what they should while they get all those government subventions
and the list of stuff that should have higher priority than "who should be banned from going to the toilet" could go on for hours
Like most countries don't even have actual regulation on gacha and lootbox mechanics in video games, when it is public knowledge it is just a nest of toxic strategy to milk people of their money, aimed to the weakest, which include children, with little to no safeguard

 

[Freyr]

On your AVN exemple, do you think stuff like "Might is right" is a positive message? like seriously? like, usually characters that follow that kind of philosophy are the bad guys in stories (and have been for centuries, it is a subject discussed as far as Plato's work), like Apocalypse in Xmen or Homelander in the Boys

I don't think it's "positive" at all, I just think it's interesting.
I also don't think that the MC of Desert Stalker is necessarily a bad guy, he's more morally ambiguous in a fantasy world where morality isn't the same as it is in our world.
For example, in that world, it's perfectly fine to have public sex with your daughter and it's also perfectly fine to loan her sexual services to your friends, regardless of whether she likes that or not.

On the Jews mention, idk what circle you are frequenting, but if you think that the political right don't have people that hate the jews, you need to expand your horizon, antisemitism exist across the whole spectrum of the political board (but the further you go on the right , the more likely you are going to meet someone that hate other for being different without any actual fact backing them)
I shall also add that there is a difference between antisemitism and manifesting again the decision of the government of Israel, left do mostly the second, even if you do have a part of the extreme that mix anti-capitalism and anti-jews because of stereotype, but those are usually shunned

What I am seeing are hordes of green-haired people on universities wearing Palestinian scarfs shouting aggressive genocidal chants like "from the river to the sea" and "death to the IDF".
Instead of chants like "Netanyahu is corrupt" or something like that, which is more reasonable.
On the extreme far right, there are of course also people who hate Jews (aka the neo-Nazi's) but this is a very small minority.

on the last part, again, when you are taking a dump, who the hell is caring about what is between the leg of the person in next stall that you don't even see? personally i don't

It does matter to those who it concerns.

In several male dominated industries, female changing rooms are just now becoming somewhat common place.
But now they have to share those again with people who are biologically male.
And, what's worse, if they complain, they are accused of being intolerant, racist ( ?), or whatever. And may even lose their job if they are unlucky.