discussion Dialogue heavy games

[PurgedMilk]

I'm working on my own Ren'Py VN game right now, and I'm curious where people draw the line on dialogue.


I like character interaction, so I tend to let conversations breathe instead of rushing straight from plot point to plot point or H-scene to H-scene. But I also don't want players thinking, "Alright, I get it. Can something happen now?"


What makes dialogue feel excessive to you?


Is it mostly scene length, or does it depend on whether the conversation is actually entertaining or developing the characters?


Do you mind normal conversations that don't immediately advance the plot—friends joking around, teasing each other, talking at lunch, etc.—if they make the cast feel more real?


Basically, where's the line between:


"This game has good character development."


and


"Holy shit, these people never stop talking."


I'd also love examples of games you think handle dialogue pacing really well or really badly.

 

[Redyscom]

It's not so much about the amount of text, but rather its quality.

You can enjoy reading a lot of text if it's well-written, doesn't ramble or drag things out unnecessarily, and is well-structured. In fact, it might even seem short to you. On the other hand, if it's not well-written—if it rambles too much or has grammatical or coherence errors—it will be a chore to read, no matter how short it is.

There are two things you should keep in mind:
- There are players who will always say there’s too much text or criticize it, even though the vast majority won’t have read it. Many are only there for the sex and nudity scenes (which, in my opinion, is a waste of time—you’re better off watching porn online instead of downloading a GAME you don’t want to play), so don’t expect the best feedback on your writing.
- A common mistake many developers make is forgetting that they’re creating a visual novel—the key is in the word “visual.” Don’t write anything that can be conveyed visually; don’t describe actions or expressions that can be shown in the game. Yes, it’s more work for you because it means creating more renders, but it makes the text easier to read.

As for the amount of writing you’re asking about, the best approach is to write and then read what you’ve written; that way, you’ll usually catch your own mistakes and can correct, refine, and improve them. Keep a clear idea of what you want to write, and don’t improvise as you go—that’s when you start to ramble.

 

[panicdragon]

I agree with what Redyscom said above.
Particular bugbears I have with dialogue is repeated phrases - it's gotta keep moving. Assume people are reading and paying attention.
I defeinitely think reading it back helps and probably something some creators just never do.
I think my other big peeve with dialogue is unrealistic reactions.Sometimes I think it's a limitation of a VN not having enough images - so the more in depth dialogue gets skipped over...but that leads to very surface level writing. Gotta have a story to tell, even if it's simple. Too many often peter out into scenes that just happen and the dialogue to connect them is just non-sensical.

 

[Don Tebjos]

I'm working on my own Ren'Py VN game right now, and I'm curious where people draw the line on dialogue.


I like character interaction, so I tend to let conversations breathe instead of rushing straight from plot point to plot point or H-scene to H-scene. But I also don't want players thinking, "Alright, I get it. Can something happen now?"


What makes dialogue feel excessive to you?


Is it mostly scene length, or does it depend on whether the conversation is actually entertaining or developing the characters?


Do you mind normal conversations that don't immediately advance the plot—friends joking around, teasing each other, talking at lunch, etc.—if they make the cast feel more real?


Basically, where's the line between:


"This game has good character development."


and


"Holy shit, these people never stop talking."


I'd also love examples of games you think handle dialogue pacing really well or really badly.

So, in my point of view: dialogues during sex. It's often the weakest part I see in writing, because you have a single image/ animation, but the text goes

Spoiler: Ok went a bit over the top there lol

"and then he lift her up, and she was like "OMG IT S SO BIG IKUU IKUU I CAN T BELIEVE IT S POUNDING MY PUSSY SO HARD AAA" while he was kissing greedily her breast and blablablabla..., before taking her hard doggystyle "AAAA NO IT S SO SHAMEFUL IN THIS POSITION OMGGGG", he remembered how she first seemed so innocent, in the cafe, and now she was begging for his huge cock to tear her apart "YOUR PUSSY IS DRIPPING SO MUCH ARE YOU OKAY?" he asked mischievously - "IKU IKU IKUU I CAN'T BELIEVE PROTAGONIST KUN IS TAKING ME SO HARD I'M CUMMING AGAIN AAAA"

Like Redyscom said, use sound effects, use more images, or even better lol use gameplay so the thing that is in the mind of the reader/ player is called upon, and he can fill the gaps himself.

Example that lastly made me quit because it tired me so fast: Happiness double room, despite the story having a strong potential

Counter example with no dialogue at all but gameplay and lots of details: Lost Life

Iirc this one was a good inbetween: Living Together with You as You Strive to Succeed, liked the writing, no redundance, never felt the need to skip the dialogues and gameplay loop was engaging (edit: no actually i DID skip the non gameplayable sex scenes iirc)

...Now I must precise I'm usually not a huge consumer of visual novels because I've been bored too often, but for what it's worth, I hope it helped anyway lol

 

[Mitomo727]

Very good advice in this thread, but I'll try adding my two cents regardless.

If you're going to be writing dialogue or descriptions for a character, make sure that character is actually relevant to the player and the plot. This may seem like obvious advice (and perhaps it is), but whenever I'm writing some character there are times I'll really get into it until I realize "oh wait, this is just some irrelevant extra that'll never be brought up again".

Same thing I've spotted in a number of games (usually RPGM titles) where it'll be some bumfuck random NPC that exists for the sole reason of giving a quest, and yet they're given a name, a description and maybe even a backstory and good grief can we just get on with it?

So, yeah, use your writing resources tactfully. Again, probably self-apparent, but it really bugs me when I spot it in the wild or I catch myself doing it.

 

[AlBetGam]

Very good advice in this thread, but I'll try adding my two cents regardless.

If you're going to be writing dialogue or descriptions for a character, make sure that character is actually relevant to the player and the plot. This may seem like obvious advice (and perhaps it is), but whenever I'm writing some character there are times I'll really get into it until I realize "oh wait, this is just some irrelevant extra that'll never be brought up again".

Same thing I've spotted in a number of games (usually RPGM titles) where it'll be some bumfuck random NPC that exists for the sole reason of giving a quest, and yet they're given a name, a description and maybe even a backstory and good grief can we just get on with it?

So, yeah, use your writing resources tactfully. Again, probably self-apparent, but it really bugs me when I spot it in the wild or I catch myself doing it.

I think this depends. In a VN you likely don't need to spend time having background characters talk (even if it's a sandbox; just don't let my click on that random extra and there's no need for her to have lines).

But in an RPGM game where the basic mechanics mean the player can walk around and attempt to talk to every character sprite, those characters should have something to say, even if it's just a stock line; the game feels very empty and unfinished if none of the people in the crowded marketplace respond when you try to talk to them. The corollary to that of course is that you don't want to add a whole lot of character sprites if they aren't needed.

Re: the overall question:

A good practice would probably be to read your dialogue out loud, maybe with a friend (real life or online); if that feels like it's taking forever or is just boring, it may be a good sign the dialogue itself is excessive or uninteresting.

 

[JLambo]

There is a non NSFW game I occasionally play called Suzerain by Torpor. The game almost entirely narrative dialogue and its enjoyable to play. I think the reason is that they give you all the relevant exposition for a scene upfront rather than making you click through it line by line. And every scene contains a meaningful choice for the character to make which has the effect of making the dialogue feel important. A lot of NSFW games with lots exposition tend to feel tedious because of all the clicking and the few or meaningless choices they actually give you.

 

[PurgedMilk]

It's not so much about the amount of text, but rather its quality.

You can enjoy reading a lot of text if it's well-written, doesn't ramble or drag things out unnecessarily, and is well-structured. In fact, it might even seem short to you. On the other hand, if it's not well-written—if it rambles too much or has grammatical or coherence errors—it will be a chore to read, no matter how short it is.

There are two things you should keep in mind:
- There are players who will always say there’s too much text or criticize it, even though the vast majority won’t have read it. Many are only there for the sex and nudity scenes (which, in my opinion, is a waste of time—you’re better off watching porn online instead of downloading a GAME you don’t want to play), so don’t expect the best feedback on your writing.
- A common mistake many developers make is forgetting that they’re creating a visual novel—the key is in the word “visual.” Don’t write anything that can be conveyed visually; don’t describe actions or expressions that can be shown in the game. Yes, it’s more work for you because it means creating more renders, but it makes the text easier to read.

As for the amount of writing you’re asking about, the best approach is to write and then read what you’ve written; that way, you’ll usually catch your own mistakes and can correct, refine, and improve them. Keep a clear idea of what you want to write, and don’t improvise as you go—that’s when you start to ramble.

Ya this is really helpful, especially the part about not writing out stuff that can already be shown visually. I could definitely see myself accidentally overexplaining expressions or actions when the sprite/render is already doing that work.

And I think the quality over quantity thing is probably the main thing I need to keep in mind. Like instead of worrying about “this scene is too long,” I should probably be asking if the conversation is still entertaining or actually doing something for the characters, or if I’m just dragging it out because I like writing them talking lol.

I’m also definitely expecting some people to skip all the dialogue no matter what. I don’t really wanna design the game around people who are only there for the H-scenes, but at the same time I also don’t wanna use that as an excuse to let scenes get bloated.

Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it.

 

[PurgedMilk]

I agree with what Redyscom said above.
Particular bugbears I have with dialogue is repeated phrases - it's gotta keep moving. Assume people are reading and paying attention.
I defeinitely think reading it back helps and probably something some creators just never do.
I think my other big peeve with dialogue is unrealistic reactions.Sometimes I think it's a limitation of a VN not having enough images - so the more in depth dialogue gets skipped over...but that leads to very surface level writing. Gotta have a story to tell, even if it's simple. Too many often peter out into scenes that just happen and the dialogue to connect them is just non-sensical.

Ya I definitely agree with the repeated phrases thing. I’ve noticed that in some games too where characters keep basically saying the same thing in slightly different ways and it starts to feel like the scene is just spinning its wheels.

The unrealistic reactions point is a really good one too. I’d rather have a simpler story where the characters actually react like real people than try to force a bunch of scenes together with dialogue that doesn’t really make sense.

And ya, rereading everything is probably gonna be a huge part of it. I feel like a lot of stuff that sounds fine while you’re writing it becomes way more obvious once you actually read the whole scene back.

Thanks for the input, I appreciate it.

 

[PurgedMilk]

I think this depends. In a VN you likely don't need to spend time having background characters talk (even if it's a sandbox; just don't let my click on that random extra and there's no need for her to have lines).

But in an RPGM game where the basic mechanics mean the player can walk around and attempt to talk to every character sprite, those characters should have something to say, even if it's just a stock line; the game feels very empty and unfinished if none of the people in the crowded marketplace respond when you try to talk to them. The corollary to that of course is that you don't want to add a whole lot of character sprites if they aren't needed.

Re: the overall question:

A good practice would probably be to read your dialogue out loud, maybe with a friend (real life or online); if that feels like it's taking forever or is just boring, it may be a good sign the dialogue itself is excessive or uninteresting.

Ya I actually like this point a lot. I could definitely see myself falling into that trap because I like making characters feel like actual people, so I’d probably be tempted to give some random background character way more attention than they really need lol.



I think the distinction you made between VNs and RPGM games makes sense too. In a VN I can just avoid putting focus on characters that don’t matter, whereas in something where the player can physically walk up and interact with everybody, it would feel weird if half the world was just completely unresponsive.


Thanks for the advice.

 

[PurgedMilk]

There is a non NSFW game I occasionally play called Suzerain by Torpor. The game almost entirely narrative dialogue and its enjoyable to play. I think the reason is that they give you all the relevant exposition for a scene upfront rather than making you click through it line by line. And every scene contains a meaningful choice for the character to make which has the effect of making the dialogue feel important. A lot of NSFW games with lots exposition tend to feel tedious because of all the clicking and the few or meaningless choices they actually give you.

That’s actually a really good point. I hadn’t really thought about the amount of clicking itself being part of what makes dialogue feel tedious.

I also like the idea of making sure scenes have some kind of meaningful player involvement instead of just having them click through 50 lines before they get to do anything. Even if the scene is mostly dialogue, giving the player choices that actually feel relevant probably goes a long way toward keeping them engaged.

I’ll have to check out Suzerain too. Thanks for the recommendation and the advice.

 

[PurgedMilk]

So, in my point of view: dialogues during sex. It's often the weakest part I see in writing, because you have a single image/ animation, but the text goes

Spoiler: Ok went a bit over the top there lol

"and then he lift her up, and she was like "OMG IT S SO BIG IKUU IKUU I CAN T BELIEVE IT S POUNDING MY PUSSY SO HARD AAA" while he was kissing greedily her breast and blablablabla..., before taking her hard doggystyle "AAAA NO IT S SO SHAMEFUL IN THIS POSITION OMGGGG", he remembered how she first seemed so innocent, in the cafe, and now she was begging for his huge cock to tear her apart "YOUR PUSSY IS DRIPPING SO MUCH ARE YOU OKAY?" he asked mischievously - "IKU IKU IKUU I CAN'T BELIEVE PROTAGONIST KUN IS TAKING ME SO HARD I'M CUMMING AGAIN AAAA"

Like Redyscom said, use sound effects, use more images, or even better lol use gameplay so the thing that is in the mind of the reader/ player is called upon, and he can fill the gaps himself.

Example that lastly made me quit because it tired me so fast: Happiness double room, despite the story having a strong potential

Counter example with no dialogue at all but gameplay and lots of details: Lost Life

Iirc this one was a good inbetween: Living Together with You as You Strive to Succeed, liked the writing, no redundance, never felt the need to skip the dialogues and gameplay loop was engaging (edit: no actually i DID skip the non gameplayable sex scenes iirc)

...Now I must precise I'm usually not a huge consumer of visual novels because I've been bored too often, but for what it's worth, I hope it helped anyway lol

Ya I get what you mean. Sex scenes are probably one of the easiest places to overdo dialogue, especially when the text is describing a bunch of stuff that the image or animation is already supposed to be showing.

I’ve actually played Lost Life and really enjoyed it, and ya that game is definitely a “no dialogue” example lol. It does a really good job of letting the visuals/gameplay carry everything and letting the player fill in the gaps themselves.

I haven’t played the other two you mentioned, but I’ll probably check them out just to see the contrast you’re talking about.

Thanks for the examples and the advice, it definitely helps.